Of prostitutes, puritans and prohibitionism

January 11, 2009 at 6:59 pm (Feminism, sex workers, unions, voltairespriest)

Only Rights Will Stop The Wrongs!I felt prompted to write this by Cath Elliott’s latest piece at Liberal Conspiracy, “Betraying Sex Workers”. In it she raises questions about the International Union of Sex Workers, suggesting that there are other interest groups behind the IUSW’s libertarian stance on legalisation and unionisation of prostitution, namely pimps and punters. Further, she says:

Whenever those of us who are opposed to legalisation or across the board decriminalisation air our views, we’re invariably shouted down and accused of not listening to what prostitutes themselves want: “Go and talk to the IUSW” we’re told: “they represent prostitutes: they know what they’re talking about.”

Now, maybe Cath and I read different newspapers but I certainly haven’t noticed supporters of Jacqui Smith’s recent proposals, or conservative feminists in general (by which I mean moralists who see puritan legislation as the solution to this issue) being howled down by IUSW or ECP supporters. It just is not true. In fact the vast majority of coverage of Smith’s proposals which I have seen, has reported them as though they were the only reasonable way forward with the issue.

As I mentioned above, she intimates that the IUSW could have members who are pimps and punters, and cites as an example one Douglas Fox. He himself replies on the same thread, and I have no idea who is right and who is wrong. In a way however that isn’t really the point. The real question is not whether the IUSW is at this stage a representative body for sex workers, but actually what it is that gives the right to speak on behalf of sex workers to middle-class Labour politicians and liberal-feminist journos who in most cases will never have had so much as a lengthy conversation with a sex worker, let alone actual experience of the way that sex work manifests and affects people’s lives.

I also find it credulous in the extreme of Cath and other writers to put so much apparent trust in a government whose record in terms of protecting vulnerable women is at best gun-shy (when it wilted over abortion rights in Northern Ireland), and at worst downright disgusting (attacks on lone parent benefits spring to mind). I simply don’t believe these people when they suddenly strike “feminist” poses, conveniently on issues with cross-party appeal to Daily Mail readers and nimbies who most certainly do not have the best interests of sex workers at heart.

Fellow Liberal Conspirator Kate Belgrave has written a reply to Cath which I entirely agree with. She says:

It does not follow that feminists who support the notion of a legal sex trade are indifferent to the crimes that can take place around it – or think, somehow, that protection for victims of those crimes runs second to the rights of sex workers who choose their trade. It is simply that feminists who support a legal sex trade believe that there is nothing to be gained from pushing the trade underground, and know that sex workers say the same thing.

The bottom line is that it’s all very well for writers favouring prohibition to cry “feminism” in defence of what in the analysis are very socially conservative politics, but it still will not alter the fact that the real crisis of representation does not lie with sex workers themselves so much as with those who claim to be representing their interests by defending proposals which stink to me of political expediency throwing sops to middle-England conservatism.

Our Caroline has written extensively both here and at her own blog giving the case against legislative prohibitionism for sex workers. I have little to add to her writings, but to say that I think the case against prohibitionism is overwhelming and further that I believe most of those who understand the difficulties faced in trying to help street sex workers would agree with me.

As Kate says, “Labour isn’t for girls”.

206 Comments

  1. Spiritof1976 said,

    What struck me most about the comments thread following Cath Elliot’s piece was that Cath (along with several of those agreeing with her) seemed simply unable to get past the fact that Douglas Fox and his partner run an escort agency – even though, other than that, there was simply nothing else that he was being accused of. No suggestion at all that he’d abused his position in the IUSW in any way.

    I don’t know Douglas Fox, but he comes across as sincere about wanting better rights and safety for sex workers, and the only evidence to being offered to suggest that that he isn’t sincere came in the form of, “Yeah, but you’re a dirty PIMP!”

    Could it be that he’s a pimp but is still in favour of better rights for sex workers?

    Like you said, social conservatism masquerading as feminism.

  2. voltairespriest said,

    Hi Spirit:

    Caroline, who writes better and more frequent articles on this subject than I do, says it’s fundamentally that these more conservative writers within feminism see sex work as “icky” and sordid, rather than simply looking at sex workers as people and then dealing with the issues which arise in a calm way. I think she’s right.

  3. Douglas fox said,

    Sex workers have always been the other.
    Nothing has changed today except the global phenomena of economic migration that has and does include sadly elements of forced human trafficking. This nasty phenomena not peculiar to sex work but to almost every industry has become the new reason d’etre to further attack the rights of a marginalised minority.
    Legislation is being now proposed to deal with a perceived problem but with out asking the very people they presume to save/protect how they think the problem could be solved.
    To speak to sex workers however is of course to recognise them as people. It may mean that politicians would have to talk about sex and why people buy sex and why people sell sex. That may mean they have to accept that perhaps sex work is just that, work and therefore deserving of recognition and of workers rights.
    The idea of saving sex workers by criminalising their business is not new. Despite the fact criminalising sex work has never worked but rather has only ever endangered sex workers and encouraged violence toward sex workers seems to be simply ignored.
    Once again middle class politicians who know nothing about sex work will ask the advice of those dedicated to ideology rather than speak to sex workers. The difference this time I hope is that sex workers do have a voice through the IUSW and the ECP. Lets just hope this time human rights will win over illiberal intolerance and we can proceed to establishing good laws.
    Douglas Fox

  4. Cath Elliott said,

    voltairespriest – “Caroline, who writes better and more frequent articles on this subject than I do, says it’s fundamentally that these more conservative writers within feminism see sex work as “icky” and sordid, rather than simply looking at sex workers as people and then dealing with the issues which arise in a calm way. I think she’s right.”

    No she’s not, it’s just another boring silencing technique, in the same way that radical feminists who have consistently argued this issue from a violence against women perspective are constantly derided as being in bed with Mary Whitehouse and other similar Victorian-style thinkers.

    It’s a steaming pile of horse-shite to put it frankly.

  5. voltairespriest said,

    That’s your view, to which you’re obviously entitled.

    I personally think that it actually is indicative of the presence of strands of conservatism within a multi-faceted feminist movement, that people would actually advocate such Victorian solutions as prohibitionism in order to “solve” the issues which surround sex work. But there again it obviously works in the government’s interests because I’m sure it wins a few votes in Tunbridge Wells.

    You see, selling sex isn’t actually the issue, certainly where street sex workers are concerned. When people haven’t actually made a fully informed choice to become sex workers, there’s always another reason, whether it’s trauma, trafficking, substance misuse, mental illness, or anything else. What they need is not to be hidden even further away from services which seek to help them, but rather to be brought into the public sphere. The same is true in order to ensure the health and safety of those who do make an active choice to become sex workers, especially those who are not at the bottom of the social pile within that industry, because they are workers whether we happen to approve of their trade or not. As such they deserve workers’ rights, for their own voices to be heard, and trade union representation. And certainly not to have their “voice” given by pundits, journos and politicians.

  6. Red Maria said,

    I skimmed Cath Elliott’s piece and the F word thread. I think Cath made some relevant points when she noted that some of the people in the IUSW had a financial interest in sex industry and were more akin to employers than workers. That said, the charge about it not being a representative organisation can easily boomerang back on the rad fem opposition too; I can’t think of any representative feminist group in the UK – in the US there’s NOW – but even that can’t be said to represent feminism in all its diversity.
    Cath accused VP of using a boring silencing technique when he referred to the similarities between Christian moralists and radical feminists, a charge which unaccountably upsets rad fems. Mind you, rad fems are not above using cynical silencing techniques themselves.
    I can’t help being reminded of the US feminist establishment’s hysterical reaction to the immortal Camille Paglia when she stormed the scene back in the early 90s inaugurating a bold new wave of pro-sex feminism. I think Gloria Steinem – or another one of the coterie of pampered professional feminists – went into hyperbolic overdrive and described one of Paglia’s books as being “anti-woman” etc etc.
    There were examples aplenty of similar moral certitude and censoriousness on the F word thread, one contributor insisting that no “decent man” would ever visit a prostitute, which seemed just a little too emphatic for my tastes.
    Rad fems, so certain of their own correctness, insist that they and they alone are qualified to represent and speak on behalf of all womanhood. Such are their delusions of grandeur. I suspect, however, that a plurality of women are, like me, stubbornly agnostic on prostitution policy.
    Many of the arguments being marshalled in favour of decriminalisation of the oldest profession are utilitarian; sex workers will benefit more in terms of wages and conditions under a tolerant legal framework than a prohibitionist one. Maybe, maybe not. Such claims can only ultimately be determined by empirical evidence.
    Seeing as the New Zealand experiment is less than a decade old, a mere blink of a gnat’s eye in terms of the grand sweep of history, my own reply to the question, what was the impact of the Prostitution Reform Act on the morbidity and mortality rates of New Zealand sex workers, would be Zhou en Lai’s: too soon to tell.

  7. voltairespriest said,

    That, and there’s the kindergarten tendency they have whereby at root they attribute all of the issues surrounding sex work to “nasty men”, and a belief that all of those problems would disappear if the nasty men were made to go away. It’s political nonsense and it doesn’t do any sort of justice to the social concerns around the welfare of sex workers. What is more it is deeply patronising in that it manifestly ignores the voices of sex workers themselves. After all, journos and writers know best what legislation is going to help street sex workers, certainly more so than the sex workers themselves, right… (rolls eyes)

  8. Lobby Ludd said,

    http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/programmes/more_or_less/7819674.stm

    (Sorry, I don’t know how to do live links.)

    I was listening to the above by chance. It is a ‘popular maths’ program. One item looked at statistics related to prostitution.

    The overwhelming feeling I got was that proposed legislation (why now?) was based on an abuse of rather disparate sources of information. Jacqui Smith did not seem to understand any questioning of her ‘evidence base’.

    I find, personally, the idea of prostitution problematic – I would not like one of my children to be a prostitute. As with ‘drugs’ it looks like Nu Lab is casting around for a view that looks good, rather than properly addressing the matter. (If, indeed, there is a matter to address.)

    Just my 2p.

  9. Renegade Evolution said,

    cath- watch out for bullshit, because you are standing in some yourself. One, you’ve hardly been silenced. Two, in that thread, or countless others like it, any time ANY sex worker tries to speak, they are outright dismissed with the “pimp” or “happy hooker” line, and any organization they are affiliated with is decried as not actually caring about sex workers, especially the trafficked ones!

    Hey, if the radical feminists and governments want to take on traffickers, well that would be awesome, I’d applaud you. But you, the views you hold, and the law you support certainly have not been silenced, so don’t act like some beset upon victim when sex workers and their allies disagree with you and yours.

  10. Yvette Doll said,

    “No she’s not, it’s just another boring silencing technique, in the same way that radical feminists who have consistently argued this issue from a violence against women perspective are constantly derided as being in bed with Mary Whitehouse and other similar Victorian-style thinkers.”

    Like the Salvation Army which campaigned against selling the virginity of 12 year old girls? What has changed? Britain today is like the 1880s again.

    Mary Whitehouse was an international figure of great importance and perhaps the reason child pornography was criminalized with the Protection of Children Act 1978

    I am proud to be a victorian style thinker, it is a lot healthier than being Douglas Fox.

    Yvette Doll

  11. Yvette Doll said,

    “ANY sex worker tries to speak, they are outright dismissed with the “pimp” or “happy hooker” line, and any organization they are affiliated with is decried as not actually caring about sex workers, especially the trafficked ones!”

    It is people like Douglas Fox who have all sides of the argument vomiting from the sheer puke-provoking potential of the undertaking.

    “It wasn’t that he didn’t know perfectly well what was going on (otherwise why squirm so uncomfortably about the headmaster who rang up requesting the youngest escort on the books to dress up as a schoolgirl?”

    http://findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_qn4158/is_/ai_n16657627

    I wouldn’t be in the same room as him.

    ‘”Where on our website does it say anything about having sex?” asked Douglas, one half of Newcastle’s premier executive escort agency, Christony Companions’

    Well there you are, he only talks about prostitution on blogs, he was too timid to do it on CH4. Having said that, I wonder if the perv teacher had a schoolgirl scheduled.

    Douglas Fox’s hobby makes me want to thank Mary Whitehouse for being so darn right as to where society would go if we didn’t get the police to do something.

    Mary Whitehouse made child pornography illegal at a time there were thousands of pro-pornography lunatics asking for it to remain a harmless hobby.

    I lived through those times.

    Yvette Doll

  12. Yvette Doll said,

    “As I mentioned above, she intimates that the IUSW could have members who are pimps and punters, and cites as an example one Douglas Fox. He himself replies on the same thread, and I have no idea who is right and who is wrong. ”

    Douglas Fox is always wrong. If he is on a side, that side should expect draconian legislation, in due course, he has that sobering effect.

    Fox was mentioned on one of the G/TIP related listservs. I think Prof Donna Hughes Dignity listserv also had a piece on him.

    So as a betting person, I really don’t fancy his chances of ever getting into the USA, I think his LA visiting rights are more or less kaput.

    On the liberal front in the USA.

    President Elect Obama, is also a bit miffed with the pro-pornography & prostitution crazy lobbyists ( one a convicted child sex criminal) asking for 5 billion of federal aid,

    I think the Obama people, don’t like pimps.

    “why squirm so uncomfortably about the headmaster who rang up requesting the youngest escort on the books to dress up as a schoolgirl?””

    I could see that routed into a moral turpitude scenario.

    That don’t leave airport

    Yvette Doll

  13. Renegade Evolution said,

    But Douglas is ONE person. ONE. And everything said by anyone has all gotten lost in the mess of Who and What Douglas is. Douglas one person.

  14. voltairespriest said,

    It does seem to me very odd that one can asks a question on any subject (of the prohibitionists who’ve been commenting about this over the past day or so), but the answer is always “Douglas Fox”, regardless of the question asked.

  15. Yvette Doll said,

    Douglas Fox is not unknown in official circles in the US because of that CH4 program and somebody from a Brit blog ( f-word?) squirted stuff to a listerv linked to ( mostly conservative) lobbyists in the United States

    Schoolgirl uniforms, are Quantico item of the month.

    I did site searches ( “age play” ) on a half dozen of the escort agencies linking to the unionized pimp groupies, and a pack of very sick puppies they are. When a cop finds a dead kid, is he to tell the mother it was some ‘age play’ that got a little too real?

    http://flickr.com/photos/msnoir/3058927393/

    That’s the best way to deal with them.

    Yvette Doll

  16. voltairespriest said,

    Sorry, but I couldn’t really give a flying fuck about Douglas Fox if I’m quite honest, he’s one person amid a large debate. You certainly cannot win an argument about prohibitionism by shouting his name over and over again.

  17. Yvette Doll said,

    He is a pimp groupie hero, he is the authentic voice of sex as work ( or managed endeavor) as per the International Union of Sex Workers and GMB.

    “This is despite raids at huge expense tot he tax payer during pentameter 1 and 11 through out the UK.” (Douglas Fox)

    http://www.feministe.us/blog/archives/2009/01/06/new-anti-prostitution-laws-will-put-women-in-danger/

    A US blog yeah? He’s preaching to God’s (US) feminists. There you are.

    The thing with P1 and P2, is that the British govt came to us, via their spooks, to ask for a list of places to raid. The govt. had lost track of it all.

    Also, terrorists, ex-cops, drugs traffickers, pedophiles, they were all joining up, in Britain, with the internet sex thing, and we were ahead of the game, in that respect.

    I can’t see Douglas Fox, getting a US visa for a lecture tour. There are terms like ‘moral turpitude’ and archaic things like that.

    U.S. entry denied

    Horsley was refused entry into the United States March 19, 2008, after arriving at Newark Airport for a book tour. Customs denied his entry claiming issues of moral turpitude. “…travelers who have been convicted of a crime involving moral turpitude (which includes controlled-substance violations) or admit to previously having a drug addiction are not admissible…” said customs spokeswoman, Lucille Cirillo. After eight hours of questioning, he was placed on a plane and sent back to London. Horsley had told the Associated Press that he had prepared for the visit; his one concession: removing his nail polish. [12]

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sebastian_Horsley

    I think Douglas Fox, is not unknown in the USA (now).

    Yvette Doll

  18. Yvette Doll said,

    “Camille Paglia when she stormed the scene back in the early 90s inaugurating a bold new wave of pro-sex feminism.”

    Red maria

    Camille Paglia is highly regarded by NAMBLA, she may even be highly praised on the that paticular pedophile web-site.

    she is certainly pro-sex, and if I recall F-Word femism is a little weak on the anti-pedophile stance. Never agree to attend anything if pro-pedophiles are there is the advice I always give to UK feminists.

    A feminism adored by boy-loving pedophiles has a limited market.

    “That’s a pretty charged issue. It’s very charged because it’s a battle that still has not concluded, the issue of pedophilia. Even in the gay community, adult gay world, there’s differing opinions on that,” she says. “I’ve signed documents supporting NAMBLA, I’m on that side. NAMBLA was attracted to my work because from Sexual Personae on, I’ve been talking about the issue in the gay male world, not in the lesbian world, of the beauty of the adolescent male, the figure hovering between childhood and adulthood. I pointed out how frequent those images are in the past whether you’re talking about Greek sculpture or Caravaggio or Michelangelo. There’s no parallel to that in lesbian sensibility.

    http://www.oasisjournals.com/Issues/9606/oasis-coverstory.html

    She has a NAMBLA thing.

    Yvette Doll

  19. Spiritof1976 said,

    I agree with voltairespriest on this one. You lot are shouting Douglas Fox’s name over and over again as an all-purpose whipping boy (no innuendo intended) for your own agenda.

    Oh, and consenting adults dressing up as schoolgirls is not illegal. A bit creepy, yes, but not illegal. Otherwise we’d have to arrest a lot of Britney Spears fans.

    From reading this and other threads, it seems clear to me that if sex workers are going to make any gains in terms of rights and safety, it’ll be done without the help of radical feminists.

  20. Yvette Doll said,

    “are constantly derided as being in bed with Mary Whitehouse and other similar Victorian-style thinkers.”

    Mary Whitehouse was better than ten of Camille Paglia.

    Pro-sex feminism is the Jew the Nazis allow to live to trap other Jews. That is not an exaggeration. Paglia has an astounding intellect, however, sooner or later it means a train going somewhere bad for women.

    mary Whitehouse with her funny spectacles, she did a lot for Britain, protectig children from pedophiles, who were running completely wild, and getting invited to the NCCL and frequently meeting important British politicians.

    It was the working class of Britain not the rich people, not the educated elites, who stood up against pedophiles.

    Mary Whitehouse was in her own way an extraordinary dragon-slayer

    And she didn’t like pimps, which is a qualification for feminism.

    Yvette Doll

  21. Yvette Doll said,

    “Oh, and consenting adults dressing up as schoolgirls is not illegal. ”

    Neither was child pornography until Mary Whitehouse. It is pedophile theming by pimps, escort sgencies, and brothels for pedophiles.

    Making money out of people who fantasize ( at the very least) having sex with children.

    It doesn’t need a union, it needs a search warrant.

    Yvette Doll

  22. Yvette Doll said,

    “From reading this and other threads, it seems clear to me that if sex workers are going to make any gains in terms of rights and safety, it’ll be done without the help of radical feminists.”

    With all those creepy and pervy web-sites and people pretending to be schoolgirls,

    or other doing child age role playing, I think the IPCE, PNVD or NAMBLA may be more reliable allies.

    I’ve never met a pimp who wasn’t a pedophile, if we are talking personal experience.

    “I really like the plain grey skirt,white blose, small chest in a training bra, black tights and M&S white knickers look. Anyone any suggestions?”

    I think that is far too sick for feminist acceptance.

    Yvette Doll

  23. Cath Elliott said,

    Renegade Evolution – “cath- watch out for bullshit, because you are standing in some yourself. One, you’ve hardly been silenced. Two, in that thread, or countless others like it, any time ANY sex worker tries to speak, they are outright dismissed with the “pimp” or “happy hooker” line, and any organization they are affiliated with is decried as not actually caring about sex workers, especially the trafficked ones!”

    I didn’t say I’d been silenced, I said it was a silencing technique. And yes, I agree, there’s far too much dismissal going on, from both sides of the debate. I’ve made clear why I don’t think Fox’s views are in any way relevant, but I would hope that I haven’t given the impression I feel the same about the contributions made by others taking part.

    As for the organisations and their role in all this, no, I don’t think they do care about women working in prostitution (and again, just to make clear, I’m not talking here about independent escorts etc, but those working the streets: those this legislation is supposed to be about). I think they’re too busy protecting their own interests, and the interests of the sex industry: desperate women leading chaotic lives don’t fit with the “prostitution as choice/consensual sex” mantra, so their needs/voices have been drowned out and hijacked, in a bid to preserve the industry at all costs.

    For me, and others like me, that cost is too high.

  24. Yvette Doll said,

    Cath

    Jacqui Smith was more scared of the PQs Lord Laird did for Prof Hughes.

    The brothel issue was decided by Americans the same way the Mary Whitehouse PoCA legislation happened. it wasn’t the Poppy project or Object.

    Fiona Mactaggart ( for example) was pro-brothel one minute and anti-brothel the next and it could change again. They were all like that and none of them can be trusted.

    The most common sex crime in Britain is what the HS is really worried about and that school uniform thing, is directly connected to that.

    Tens of millions of child pornography transactions, real events, not estimates, each a grade A crime, in other words, *most* of Britain’s serious crime and virtually all the sex crime by incidence.

    The people doing that are teachers, care-workers, ordinary men, child pornography is more popular than baseball, that lynching comparison was a first step to prohibition of tree hung negroes.

    That means the average kid in Britain is a lot closer to an active pedophile than a fluffy pet dog.

    Tens of millions, each year it gets worse, the Brits relying on the FBI to get a sprinkle of arrests, for public confidence.

    Mostly HS Smith is worried about teachers.

    Yvette Doll

  25. Yvette Doll said,

    “I’ve made clear why I don’t think Fox’s views are in any way relevant”

    Douglas Fox did real good,

    I think Jacqui Smith, Paul Goggins, a whole heap of people, I think a lot of folks were impressed with what he was doing, not in a good way, but impressed.

    And it was very relevant. The art of lobbying is knowing what the politician fears most.

    That is the secret of winning.

    Yvette Doll

  26. Renegade Evolution said,

    Cath- well, i hope you don’t hold t hat veiw of ALL sex worker orgs, because it is misplaced.

    Oh look, the nazi comparision again. You know, as a Jew and a Sex Worker, I find that damn odious.

  27. Cath Elliott said,

    Renegade Evolution – No I don’t, but the two most vocal ones we’ve got over here definitely fall into that category.

  28. Spiritof1976 said,

    child pornography is more popular than baseball

    And your source for that claim is?

  29. Yvette Doll said,

    The baseball comparison was with lynching.

    There were 13.7 million child pornography transactions mapped by the FBI in Britain over a few images, and that wil be a small perentage of the total.

    CP is Jacqui Smith’s number one prob, from a sex crime perspective. It in a numerical sense, it is the thing, she has to do.

    Lynching was a picnic, mainstreamed activity.

  30. Yvette Doll said,

    I find pro-sex fem’s support of pedophilia a prob.

  31. Yvette Doll said,

    In the USA, pro-sex feminism is in (open) alliance with pedophiles, it is the same in Britain and it was certainly the same in Holland. The most vile & violent pornographers are supported by Douglas Fox’s union.

  32. Yvette Doll said,

    International Union of Sex Workers

    The International Union of Sex Workers has become one of Backlash’s supporting organisations. Here is their statement in our support.

    The International Union of Sex Workers strongly supports Backlash’s campaign against the proposed legislation against ‘violent’ porn. The proposed changes would scapegoat consenting adults while doing little to lessen the real threats of violence in society.

    The proposed legislation breaches the Human Rights Act in ways that parallel the situation with existing laws on sex work. The new law would promote and encourage ignorance, in same way as current sex work laws do, with the greater potential for harm that such ignorance brings.

    The proposed legislation has been formed around moral judgements, rather than on any basis of fact or proof of harm. Like anti-prostitution legislation, it has been prepared without consultation with those actually involved.

    We strongly believe the State has no business interfering with the private lives of consenting adults, and stand with Backlash against this legislation.

    © Copyleft backlash 2006
    http://www.backlash-uk.org.uk/about.html .

  33. Yvette Doll said,

    “Although the actresses in Little’s movies sometimes appear to be under the age of consent and even as young adolescents, it has never been proven that any of them actually were. In his film Max Extreme 4, an actress stated during one verbal exchange that she was 12 years-old, according to Adult Video News magazine.”

    School uniform territory – that is were the money is. He lost his web-site to our friends.

    Yvette Doll

  34. Yvette Doll said,

    So maybe, the pro-sex feminists of London, can sort out a new web-site for Max.

    We clocked his old one.

    Yvette Doll

    This website has been forfeited to the Unites States Government

    pursuant to the conviction of Paul F. Little, a.k.a “Max Hardcore”

    and Max World Entertainment for violations of 18 United States Code

    §§ 1461 and 1465

  35. Renegade Evolution said,

    Yvette:

    “pro-sex feminism is in (open) alliance with pedophiles”

    You better be able to prove that. Paglia? One, very out of favor with most feminists. Two, solid proof of an allience is needed. Hardcore? Federal Law 2257 insures the performers in his work are of age…shall we arrest mainstream film and television people who depict teenagers having sex in their films? When the actress in a teenager flick says, as her character, she is 16, but then gets it on with her boyfriend anyway, shall we go after the director who films such things? Oh, by the way? Hardcore is in JAIL.

    You may find adult women whom are of age dressing like schoolgirls in sex disturbing, and you would not be alone, but the point is, an adult can wear whatever they want in sexual scenarios and it is no ones business. Saying sex positive feminists are in allience with child rapists and molesters is way the hell out of line and probably the worst case of anti sex positive feminism jingoism I have ever seen. It is a flat out lie, and comparing people to nazis is downright disgusting. Sex Positive feminists haven’t killed countless people, and making light of those deaths is absolutely horrible form.

  36. Yvette Doll said,

    “Oh look, the nazi comparision again. You know, as a Jew and a Sex Worker, I find that damn odious”

    I meant it, pro-sex feminism is in cahoots with pedophila, there are tens of millions of child porngraphy transactions in Britain and that scale of abuse is an unfixable atrocity against the children of the world.

    So they’re as bad as Nazis, pedophiles and their supporters. And ( anyways) sex workers are always calling the Pope a Nazi

    A pro sex feminist is a Jew the Nazis allow to live to trap other Jews. I mean look at the sex worker web-sites, they’re degrading, a crime against women.

    So I really meant that, absolutely and for sure.

    Yvette Doll

    PS

    ( It is not a secret, Brits and little kids, you know the mainstreamed pedophilia, we know about it, we do your CP policing for you, we do that, you don’ t do it, we do)

    Spot where there isn’t a pervert | News | News Of The World
    And it has now built up the terrifying map we publish today with 13.7 MILLION transactions. Hundreds of thousands of perverts are collecting thousands of …
    http://www.newsoftheworld.co.uk/news/article10997.ece – Similar pages

  37. Renegade Evolution said,

    You are so out of line and wrong it is not even amusing.

  38. Yvette Doll said,

    “Hardcore? Federal Law 2257 insures the performers in his work are of age”

    The thing with insuring things, is the small print. The porn industry doesn’t like keeping records.

    Yvette Doll

    6th Circuit Grants Rehearing in 2257 Case
    Bad news for the adult industry – but no surprise

    By: David Sullivan

    Posted: 04/10/2008

    CINCINNATI – The 6th Circuit U.S. Court of Appeals has granted the federal government’s request for a rehearing on the 2257 federal record-keeping law struck down as unconstitutional by a 6th Circuit panel last October.

  39. stroppybird said,

    Volty

    Shame your tinfoil hat competition has ended 🙂

  40. Yvette Doll said,

    Tampa jurors convicted him in June on 10 counts of selling obscene material on the Internet and 10 counts of shipping it to Tampa through the U.S. mail.

    They reached that decision after watching 8-1/2 hours of extreme pornography on a giant screen in court. At times, they winced as the adult film producer, who calls himself Max Hardcore, performed in scenes that included urinating, vomiting and violently dominating women.

    http://blogs.tampabay.com/breakingnews/2008/10/pornographer-ma.html

  41. Renegade Evolution said,

    “The thing with insuring things, is the small print. The porn industry doesn’t like keeping records.”

    Incorrect, and 2257 is poised to become even more of a big deal. Legal pornographers do not mess around with 2257 or the Fed. They are in business to make money, not loose money and face court and jail time.

    And I am very familiar with the Max Hardcore case, I do not need an education on it from you.

  42. Yvette Doll said,

    So pro-sex feminists, who like Max Hardcore, and that is seemingly most of them, are not really feminists. They use the tag ‘feminism’ but really they’re just in the pimping junior league.

  43. Yvette Doll said,

    I’m giving you a lesson anyway, I think you need it.

    Yvette

  44. Renegade Evolution said,

    Most pro-sex feminists do not “like” max hardcore. Most dislike max hardcore and hate his work. however, they do not necessarily believe in telling other people what they can and cannot get turned on by, or film, or consent to be in. Big Difference. Many believe in freedom of speech, even if they hate what is being said…there is a HUGE difference between supporting someones freedom of speech and “liking” them.

    If you don’t understand that, well, that certainly says something. Many feminists don’t like Ann Coulter either, but believe she has a right to say what she wants to say.

  45. Yvette Doll said,

    His endorsement is via a lobby, iincluding pro-sex feminism

    As it happens, in the USA, UK and Holland, pro-sex feminism is in cahoots with pro-pedophiles. They go out together.

    But the pornography industry ( in the USA) was using children for years and 2257 is after 1990 if I recall.

    In Europe using kids was completely normal.

    Yvette

  46. Renegade Evolution said,

    Let’s see your proof. I can think of one porn case in the US- Traci Lords. Perhaps there were a few others, and in those cases you will find false ID’s played a part. As for the rest of your accusations, let us see some solid proof. Otherwise, its all piss and wind.

    I’m going to bed now, thus far you’ve not proven to be very educational, but I’ll check back later to see the rafts of absolute solid evidence you surely will have produced by then.

  47. Yvette Doll said,

    Do you think that happened?

    Recurrent cartoon and composite photo themes picturing blood-soaked castration are seen in the reality of child rape and mutilation. In October 26, 1990 a nine-year-old boy in Norman, Oklahoma was raped, his penis cut off and eye gouged out causing Hustler to be removed from local stores — where a current Hustler depicted a young boy similarly tortured.

  48. Yvette Doll said,

    Are you for real? What kind of porn trade did you think Amsterdam had, or exists in the Ukraine? Get out of here. They’re all pro-pedophiles at their core.

    Many pornogrphers do child porn at the beginning and they drop it at a later date, that cycle is repeated across the world.

    The Brits claim to have (once) hosted a fifth of the world’s child pornography total in the late 1990s.

    “18% of online child abuse images reported in our first year were hosted in UK whereas just 0.2% of online child abuse images reported in our tenth year were hosted in the UK”

    http://www.iwf.org.uk/media/news.archive-2006.179.htm

    ( don’t ask nobody ( of that 18 percent) goes to jail)

    They keep blaming US pornographers, the Brits are really wild, and the Brit public lap it up. They are told these things via the state broadcaster & etc.

    ( they’re idiots)

    Yvette

    http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/technology/5195460.stm

    US ‘worst’ for online child abuse

    More than 14,000 websites were reported to the IWF

    More than 50% of online images of child abuse reported to an internet watchdog can be traced to the US, a report says.

  49. Yvette Doll said,

    Traci Lords.

    That’s a dime a dozen in Europe, the Brits just leave it on the shelves. If you ask the Brits to take U18 child porn out of retail, they just can’t see the point.

    The customs work OK, the age-checking is three years behind. The other thing is, Brits, well nobody wants to do it.

    You have a heap of agencies, none o them will do it, it stays in retail or whatever.

    It is not the USA, the Brits also have areas of immunity. It can take a decde to get one child pornographer and the FBI will probably have to do that for them.

    A teacher for example, will have a long run. So 261 schoolgirls proxy child porn or whatever, is not going to zilch too many myspce accounts.

    The USA does more teachers in a day, than the UK wants to do in a year.

    The feminists ( of all shades) allow the teeachers to get on with it.

    It is their culture & history.

    Yvette

    BBC NEWS | England | Beds/Bucks/Herts | Ex-teacher jailed for …
    13 Apr 2007 … Luton Crown Court heard Graham Conridge, 59, admitted posing as a teenage boy to contact 261 girls aged 11 to 15 through MSN and chatrooms. …
    news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/england/beds/bucks/herts/6552437.stm – 39k –

    MySpace.com – Graham Conridge – 61 – Male – Bedford, UK – www …
    MySpace profile for Graham Conridge with pictures, videos, personal blog, interests, information about me and more.
    http://www.myspace.com/grahamconridge – 47k – Cached – Similar pages –

  50. Anthony Kennerson said,

    WOW.

    So, once again, a woman’s attempt to explain herself and her policy to help active sex workers is distorted and deflected into the usual histrionics and smears about whether Douglas Fox is a “pimp”, how “sex positives” are foot soldiers for pedophilia, the political value of Camille Paglia, and whether Traci Lords (whom has openly said that she faked her own ID to enter the porn business, and was coerced to do so by no one) represents the average sex worker.

    And that’s even BEFORE Yvette Doll decides to go off.

    It would take a full essay of mine to dissect and debunk all the mountain of crap that she has spilled on this thread; but rest assured that anyone who opines with a straight face that anyone who opposes antiporn/antiprostitution legislation is “in bed with pedophiles” probably should not be taken too seriously by reasonable folk.

    But that is for later, and for another venue. Unlike Yvette, I have better things to do than merely jack threads.

    As for Cash Elliot and her original response to Caroline’s essay: well, ma’am, if you think that Caroline’s efforts as a concerned citizen and a woman and a feminist to help out women whom she feels would be threatened by the legislation you support amounts to part of “a popular silencing technique”, well, that’s your opinion and you are entitled to it. But when you start smearing other persons as “pimps” merely because they happen to be men and they happen to share the same concerns as Caroline does….well, bless your heart,.

    And notice once again that Caroline’s original argument has been shundered into the background in favor of more heat and bomb throwing about pimps and Hustler and teachers having sex with their students…..how is that not “silencing” Caroline??

    Yeah, Yvette, you certainly are giving us a lesson….in radical right “feminist” progaganda. But do keep it up.

    (And yes, I explicitly without apology make the case that the antiporn/antiprostitution “feminists” are not only in league with the Right; on this issue they ARE the Right. Anything that takes away the freedoms and liberties of innocent people who have done no harm in the name of “protecting women and children” certainly sounds right-wing to me.

    But what do I know….I’m just a working class, sex-positive leftist Black man. I guess that makes me a “pimp” too…right, Yvette??

    Anthony

  51. Iamcuriousblue said,

    I’ve been seeing Yvette’s utterly bizarre posts on just about every thread where this issue is being debated. It makes me wonder if she puts her pants on one leg at a time.

    Yep, the sex-positive and sex worker rights movements are nothing but a front for a vast pro-pedophile conspiracy. We also hold meetings in secret cellars underneath day care centers where we sacrifice babies to Satan.

  52. Aspasia said,

    @Yvette Doll: So…we meet again.

    “President Elect Obama, is also a bit miffed with the pro-pornography & prostitution crazy lobbyists ( one a convicted child sex criminal) asking for 5 billion of federal aid,”

    Umm…yeah, neither Larry Flynt nor Joe Francis are prostitution lobbyists. In fact, we prostitutes don’t have lobbyists and if we did, it certainly wouldn’t be either of them.

    “I meant it, pro-sex feminism is in cahoots with pedophila, there are tens of millions of child porngraphy transactions in Britain and that scale of abuse is an unfixable atrocity against the children of the world.

    So they’re as bad as Nazis, pedophiles and their supporters. And ( anyways) sex workers are always calling the Pope a Nazi ”

    You and Rick Warren, your friend AND Obama’s, must be friends. I mean, he thinks homosexuals are nothing but a bunch of pedophiles and people who participate in incest and beastiality and he thinks women who are pro-choice and definitely those who get abortions are Nazis and enacting a Holocaust.

    Oh what? Think that sounds outrageous? Funny, that’s exactly what I thought about your comments. It’s telling that you equate an enjoyment of sex with pedophilia. I’m guess you are asexual, then or are you admitting that you’re a pedophile? You are a sick individual, Dollface.

  53. SnowdropExplodes said,

    Yvette, you would be wise to check up on the history of the “Operation Ore” scandal before claiming that the FBI have tracked x many child porn transactions. The vast majority of the transactions that were classified as being potentially related to child porn were in fact related to perfectly legal adult porn, and not even particularly hardcore stuff, either. The outcome of Operation Ore was that thousands of innocent families were destroyed by the UK police acting on the information they were provided by the FBI.

    You also seem completely unaware of how British law treats pornography of ANY description, and certainly unaware of how it treats child porn. “( don’t ask nobody ( of that 18 percent) goes to jail)” “They keep blaming US pornographers, the Brits are really wild, and the Brit public lap it up. They are told these things via the state broadcaster & etc.” “the Brits just leave it on the shelves. If you ask the Brits to take U18 child porn out of retail, they just can’t see the point.”

    In the UK, simple possession of child pornography comes with a jail sentence, and being added permanently to the Sex Offenders Register. It is quite literally in some cases a death sentence simply to be accused, let alone found guilty – among the tragedies in this country are people being falsely accused just because they had a picture of their own child playing in the bath; a paediatrician being abused and assaulted because semi-literate Brits couldn’t tell the difference between that job title and “paedophile”. People have been murdered because others suspected them of having sexual interest in children. People who have been accused of buying child porn over the internet have been hounded into committing suicide. Even some of those who have been FALSELY accused have been driven to suicide.

    Any movie, including porn movies, on sale in the UK has to be passed by the BBFC (British Board of Film Classification (formerly Censorship)).

    Any image that even seems to show an underage person engaging in sexual activity (even if there are records to prove that it is an adult dressed as, say, a schoolgirl) is illegal.

    Your suggestion that the UK – with some of the most stringent censorship laws of any Western European democracy – is somehow soft on pornographers and paedophiles, is utterly absurd.

  54. The “NAMBLA’izing of Douglas Fox of IUSW (Or, Yvette Doll Wins The Golden A*Hole Wingnut Award Hands Down) | The SmackDog Chronicles (Ver. 2.6) said,

    […] [from the thread at Shriaz Socialist] January 12, 2009 at 9:19 am […]

  55. Renegade Evolution said,

    Yvette: Then it sounds like YOUR problem is with the Brits, not pro sex people. And yes, I am for real. I even have a link back to a blog and everything.

  56. Yvette Doll said,

    “In the UK, simple possession of child pornography comes with a jail sentence, and being added permanently to the Sex Offenders Register. ”

    Dear Snowdrop

    The British don’t generally jail pedophiles, or individuals caught with child pornography and Jim Gamble doesn’t want them to. So you are being a little silly if you don’t mind me pointing that out.

    Who gets detected by CEOP? I’m not interested in the FBI’s work in Britain or mailing services, I don’t need to be be told what the FBI do in Britain.

    For example, has Jim Gamble ever arrested a pedophile in his entire career, and don’t point me to any FBI/RCMP stuff, I mean has *he* ever detected, arrested, testified in court & etc.

    “Any movie, including porn movies, on sale in the UK has to be passed by the BBFC (British Board of Film Classification (formerly Censorship)).”

    And when was the last person sent to jail for U18 via retail?

    How many police agencies have prosecuted via CPS or whatever, for breaches related to that?

    U18 is sold retail in Britain.

    Yvette Doll

  57. Yvette Doll said,

    The “NAMBLA’izing of Douglas Fox of IUSW (Or, Yvette Doll Wins The Golden A*Hole Wingnut Award Hands Down) | The SmackDog Chronicles (Ver. 2.6) said,

    Douglas Fox is becoming so googleable.

    He is a minor celebrity already.

    Yvette

  58. Yvette Doll said,

    “Yep, the sex-positive and sex worker rights movements are nothing but a front for a vast pro-pedophile conspiracy.”

    Well CH4 had Douglas Fox doing ersatz schoolgirls to British teachers.

    Who gets to check the ages of faux schoolgirls.

    So do you think that school was safe?

    With that teacher

    Yvette Doll

    “Douglas’s attitude to the cover story seemed to be one of weary exasperation. Of course they’re going to have sex, his expression said, but if we talked honestly about it I might be busted for immoral earnings and the police would have to waste time pushing working girls back on to the street. John’s denial, though, was much more interesting: an odd hybrid of legalistic game-playing and genuine psychological resistance to the notion that he was selling sex. It wasn’t that he didn’t know perfectly well what was going on (otherwise why squirm so uncomfortably about the headmaster who rang up requesting the youngest escort on the books to dress up as a schoolgirl?”

    http://findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_qn4158/is_/ai_n16657627

  59. Yvette Doll said,

    “In the UK, simple possession of child pornography comes with a jail sentence, and being added permanently to the Sex Offenders Register.”

    So nobody ( at all) went to jail for that period when the UK hosted 18 percent of the word’s chid pornography? Nice try with the BS

    I helped draft the SOA 2003, I’m not stupid.

    So nobody is our answer.

    Yvette

  60. Yvette Doll said,

    “Your suggestion that the UK – with some of the most stringent censorship laws of any Western European democracy – is somehow soft on pornographers and paedophiles, is utterly absurd.”

    So nobody at all went to jail for the 18 percent of the word’s CP conceded by the IWF, that would strike me as a bit lenient.

    You people are really full of BS, not one single prosecution can you show me for that 18 percent IWF claim.

    The Brits have an entire blaming the USA to hide from the fct out of their huge CP hosting constituency, thy prosecuted, nobody at all.

    Don’t slabber about FBI outreach.

    Yvette Doll

    http://news.soft32.com/britain-best-at-beating-online-child-porn-iwf_2603.html

    Britain best at beating online child porn – IWF

    This compared with just 0.2 percent of potentially illegal content that appears to be hosted in Britain, down from 18 percent in 1997.

  61. Yvette Doll said,

    “Yvette: Then it sounds like YOUR problem is with the Brits, not pro sex people. And yes, I am for real. I even have a link back to a blog and everything.”

    The pro-sex people in Britain delivered immunity to the 18 percent we are discussing.

    The Brits ewre blaming te USA, ere hosting 18 percent by their own admission, and prosecuted nobody,

    The pro-sex people are the PR engine for that.

    They talk about ‘censorship’ or ‘going to jail’ but the truth was the complete opposite.

    They are whining here because eventually we had to take a *direct* hand.

    Yvette Doll

  62. Yvette Doll said,

    “Any image that even seems to show an underage person engaging in sexual activity (even if there are records to prove that it is an adult dressed as, say, a schoolgirl) is illegal.”

    So ( a sex worker) such s Douglas Fox renting out faux schoolgirls to teachers, at an escort agency would be viewed as really bad?

    :o))

    So anybody prosecuted for faux schoolgirl stuff?

    Yvette Doll

  63. Yvette Doll said,

    (Notice to the Americans”

    What the Brits are telling us, is that our FBI or the RCMP in Canada, detect something, arm twist the Brits to arrest somerbody and apart from that, they don’t do anything.

    So out of the 18 percent of the the word’s child pornography hosted in Britain they convicted nobody at all.

    The Brits don’t do small lies, they do really huge lies. And to get to that place, the pro-sex feminists ( perverts tht they are) were helping with the deception.

    Writing articles & etc.

    Yvette Doll

    http://news.soft32.com/britain-best-at-beating-online-child-porn-iwf_2603.html

    Britain best at beating online child porn – IWF

    This compared with just 0.2 percent of potentially illegal content that appears to be hosted in Britain, down from 18 percent in 1997.

  64. Yvette Doll said,

    “I’ve been seeing Yvette’s utterly bizarre posts on just about every thread where this issue is being debated. It makes me wonder if she puts her pants on one leg at a time.”

    What is so bizarre about asking folks who claim to be under the hard heel of censorship and hard assed policing to show me one prosecution related to the peroid in time when Britain hosted 18 percent of the world’s child pornography?

    Is that unreasonable? because we can do *why* after the little fibbers concede the point and then we can get back to Douglas Fox.

    Yvette Doll

  65. Yvette Doll said,

    “Funny, that’s exactly what I thought about your comments. It’s telling that you equate an enjoyment of sex with pedophilia.”

    The pro-sex feminazis are fibbing though their teeth, like the pedophile loving creatures they are and spamming us with propaganda which has no relationship to the de facto thing on the ground.

    I don’t have a web-site with age play price tariffs, and unlike Douglas Fox I don’t have a CH 4 TV program talking about supplying teachers with the youngest girl in the joint in a school uniform

    “Any image that even seems to show an underage person engaging in sexual activity (even if there are records to prove that it is an adult dressed as, say, a schoolgirl) is illegal.”

    Snowdrop said that, and obviously I think there is a glaring conflict in the alleged prosecutiion culture, and the reality of other things.

    Yvette Doll

  66. Yvette Doll said,

    The “NAMBLA’izing of Douglas Fox of IUSW (Or, Yvette Doll Wins The Golden A*Hole Wingnut Award Hands Down) | The SmackDog Chronicles (Ver. 2.6) said,

    I am thinking of linking that to my discography. Are you ging to do an Andy Warhol link or a wiki entry?

    Yvette

  67. Natalia Antonova said,

    As a survivor of child molestation, and a “pro-sex feminist” – I’d just like to say,

    Hey Yvette,

    Screw you.

    (Sorry if that’s totally unproductive to everyone else involved – but I am seriously, SERIOUSLY offended right now)

  68. Yvette Doll said,

    Natalia

    The pro sex feminists in Britain worked hand in glove with the pedophiles.

    I was in London during the NCCL days, when PIE and PAL were being invited to join things. The PSF as a grouping are pro-pedophiles.

    Look at the spoof posted here, for example, why can’t any of them substantiate the hard hand of censorship and brutal policing by telling us how many of the people hosting the child pornography in the IWF stats went to jail, the 18 percent of the world’s total.

    The PSF are full of BS, they are pimp groupies

    Yvette Doll

  69. Iamcuriousblue said,

    “Hey Yvette,

    Screw you.

    (Sorry if that’s totally unproductive to everyone else involved – but I am seriously, SERIOUSLY offended right now)”

    No, you are far from alone in that sentiment.

  70. Yvette Doll said,

    Natalia

    Your blog

    It is like a soccer mom thing

    Yvette

  71. voltairespriest said,

    What Natalia said.

  72. Renegade Evolution said,

    yvette: t

    he only thing you’re proving here is you are…a bit off. adult women dressed liked schoolgirls are not school girls. If your issue is what you think to be the UK ignoring child sexual abuse, find an organization that specializes in combating that and put your efforts there rather than throwing around absolutely groundless and asinine accusations at entire groups of people (“the Brits”, “sex positive feminists”). I mean, in the last few days you’ve managed to insult the Brits, sex positive feminists, jews, eastern europeans and any other people affected by the holocaust, sexual abuse survivors, the Japanese, and those into sexual things you yourself find icky, even if they solely involve consenting adults (such as age and or cosplay).

  73. Yvette Doll said,

    I still think she has a soccer mom blog. it is so prissy.

    I was ( BTW) a consultant to the Soviet Union in relation to licensing of classical product. I was really good at copyright

    “The work on this blog is protected, and some of my best friends happen to be mean, saber-toothed IP lawyers. Just sayin’…”

    http://nataliaantonova.wordpress.com/i-am-the-dork-angel/

    So whatever, and big yawn

    Yvette Doll

  74. Renegade Evolution said,

    yvette: at least Natalia relies on fact, avoids blatant rasicst statements, and oh, has a readership.

  75. Renegade Evolution said,

    Woo, the lawyers! She’s threatening with the lawyers!

    Pathetic. And…you’d probably lose.

  76. Natalia Antonova said,

    My internets lawyers support me in e-mail.

    I actually take the soccer mom thing as a compliment. Where I come from – soccer moms are pretty hawt.

  77. Yvette Doll said,

    Dear Remegade

    I helped draft the Sexual Offences Act 2003, for the UNited KIngdom when I said that I was neither joking or exaggerating. Do you follow?

    “adult women dressed liked schoolgirls are not school girls”

    It is child porn if it is filmed in lots of places and the customers are pedophiles, there are no rsatz pedophiles, their heads are the same.

    “Any image that even seems to show an underage person engaging in sexual activity (even if there are records to prove that it is an adult dressed as, say, a schoolgirl) is illegal.”

    That ( on this thread) from Snowdrop, the general concept is not difficult.

    It is a form of pro-pedophilia, in other words sick degenerates, who are a danger to children. They should be banned from working in schools etc.

    That kind of thing.

    Yvette Doll

  78. Yvette Doll said,

    Natalia Antonova said,

    January 12, 2009 at 11:19 pm

    My internets lawyers support me in e-mail.

    I actually take the soccer mom thing as a compliment. Where I come from – soccer moms are pretty hawt.

    Natalia

    I am so pleased, that you are pleased, because if soccer mom is what you ere pitching for, you brought it in, and in media, publishing, that’s the ticket, you deliver the idea you started out with.

    “Where I come from – soccer moms are pretty hawt.”

    One can’t beat hawt, it is so cold in Alaska.

    As one use to say

    “My internets lawyers support me in e-mail.”

    I usually have to visit mine.

    Yvette Doll

  79. voltairespriest said,

    Really Yvette, I can see from your posts how the Blair government would have invited you into its inner circle in order to help draft legislation…

  80. Renegade Evolution said,

    You know Yvette, you actually make me glad I’d be banned in the UK…

  81. voltairespriest said,

    Incidentally, what’s with the obsession with paedophilia? Nobody – and I mean nobody – here is defending paedophilia. What we are concerned about are the rights of sex workers to be seen as legitimate people with rights, rather than as passive, othered victims or as evil whores.

  82. Yvette Doll said,

    “yvette: at least Natalia relies on fact”

    I’m laughing at you already. I do facts on a reasonable budget. I do a lot of UN related work, govt. reporting, and as I pointed out, I helped draft legislation for Britain.

    Mistakes, I not really allowed to do, which is why I derided some of thepreposterously strange claims from the pimp groupies.

    Yvette

  83. Cath Elliott said,

    I’d just like to disassociate myself from Yvette Doll’s comments on this and other threads.

    Yvette (btw, why are you pretending to be a woman?), you may have had some interesting points to make somewhere in the discussion, but I lost them amongst the racism and the misogny:

    “The pro-sex feminazis”

    Seriously, STFU.

  84. Natalia Antonova said,

    Well, I actually live somewhere a lil’ warmer than Alaska, but if that’s your fantasy, baby – who am I to break your dream. I hear Hustler’s got you covered.

    We all bow before your superior government connections, of course. As we used to say – “the nobles shall come and sort us out.”

  85. voltairespriest said,

    Cath, do you know Yvette actually to be a man? This genuinely is mere curiosity and a little o/t.

  86. Yvette Doll said,

    “Nobody – and I mean nobody – here is defending paedophilia”

    On here?

    I’ve seen a fair amount of pro-pedophile activism or advocacy.

    So I disagree.

    Yvette

  87. Natalia Antonova said,

    Soviet Union – UN – and the United Federation of Planets! All beneficiaries of Yvette’s excellent brand of wisdom.

    (Sorry for the derail, this is too amusing)

  88. Renegade Evolution said,

    “I’m laughing at you already. I do facts on a reasonable budget. I do a lot of UN related work, govt. reporting, and as I pointed out, I helped draft legislation for Britain”

    So you’ve said…proof?

    And trust me, I’ve been laughing my ass off at you for the last three days. There’s a running bet going on about if you are real, or just one of the most fucked up trolls ever to hit the net.

  89. voltairespriest said,

    I’ve seen a fair amount of pro-pedophile activism or advocacy.

    Where? Either you’re seeing things I’m not (mind you on reflection that’s entirely possible in a sense), or you’re just talking bollocks,

  90. Yvette Doll said,

    “Well, I actually live somewhere a lil’ warmer than Alaska, but if that’s your fantasy, baby – who am I to break your dream. I hear Hustler’s got you covered.

    We all bow before your superior government connections, of course. As we used to say – “the nobles shall come and sort us out.””

    place not thy trust in princes

    Hustler are funding a building at PSU to commemorate any fatal accident I am stupid enough to have.

    Yvette

  91. voltairespriest said,

    Hustler are funding a building at PSU to commemorate any fatal accident I am stupid enough to have.

    Ok, now you look really nuts.

  92. Natalia Antonova said,

    It’s an old Russian saying, Yvette. But I’m sure that both Hustler and Keyser Soze are after you, of course. Do take care of yourself.

  93. Yvette Doll said,

    “Where? Either you’re seeing things I’m not (mind you on reflection that’s entirely possible in a sense), or you’re just talking bollocks,”

    There has in fact been pro-pedophile arguments posted to this thread. If I have a complaint it would be the bogus positions, in relation to stuff.

    The FBI are the premier agency in Britain re: the criminal issues discussed, followed by the Met, and so on. so in Tayside, about 50 percent or something.

    And CEOP in USA do what? One can immediiately work out ‘differences’ and relate that to policies, and whatever.

    One doesn’t have to see a star to know it is there.

    One just needs to be an expert.

    ( which I am)

    Yvette

  94. Renegade Evolution said,

    Adjust the tinfoil hat, it’s slipping.

  95. voltairespriest said,

    Oh yeah. Bacofoil shares go through the roof when Yvette goes out in the rain, for sure.

  96. Yvette Doll said,

    “It’s an old Russian saying, Yvette. But I’m sure that both Hustler and Keyser Soze are after you, of course. Do take care of yourself.”

    I just did hard currency stuff for the Soviets.

    Much the same as any other kind of licensing, I had friends working on the Bolshoi etc. My experience was phonographic and manufacture, logistics, and that kind of thing. I did the same for anybody. I had an office near Leicester Square

    Hustler is probably covered.

    http://www.winst.org/family_marriage_and_democracy/social_costs_of_pornography/consultation2008.php

    Keyser Soze?

    Some of my local opponents are dead or in jail, they tend to kill each other. Some of it was like Reservoir Dogs, it can be difficult.

    Yvette

  97. Yvette Doll said,

    “And trust me, I’ve been laughing my ass off at you for the last three days. There’s a running bet going on about if you are real, or just one of the most fucked up trolls ever to hit the net.”

    It has a six figure budget, whichever one.

    It is not cheap

    Yvette

  98. Renegade Evolution said,

    This is truly becoming priceless ::pops some popcorn::

  99. Natalia Antonova said,

    No, no, Yvette – not Tarantino. Bryan Singer is the director you’re thinking of. According to popular rumour, Soze’s still out there – and if he has any brains at all, he’s probably targeting you, you being so dangerous and all. Look out!

  100. Renegade Evolution said,

    Personally, I am curious as to why Yvette is posting under a woman’s name when well, he’s a guy.

  101. Natalia Antonova said,

    I’m wondering the same thing right now, Ren.

  102. voltairespriest said,

    You’re right, you know. I wasn’t sure when Cath first said it but I’ve now done a bit of digging.

  103. Natalia Antonova said,

    Suddenly the soccer mom thing takes on a whole new meaning…. LOL

  104. Anthony Kennerson said,

    Damn, Yvette..doesn’t take you long, doesn’t ti??

    You do know, of course, the the “NAMBLA” portion of the title of my blog entry refers to the tactic common with right-wing fascists of linking any group that dares to challenge them on the merits of the facts with that particular organization. It implies absolutely NO endorsement whatsoever of that organization’s policies.

    Sorry to burst your bubble, dearie, but I’m no more pro-pedophilia than you are a Rhodes Scholar with a legitimate take on this subject.

    Then again, if you do happen to be one of Rush Limbaugh’s Dittoheads merely jerking us all off for troll entertainment….well, bless your heart, because your ass sure isn’t worth getting lathered up about.

    Anthony

    Bacofoil?? Is that anything like our Renyold’s Wrap???

  105. Anthony Kennerson said,

    Oh, wait a minute, hold up……this is actually a GUY???

    OK….that explains everything.

    Dewd…you seriously need to check yourself. This is not the way to get attention for yourself.

    Do us a favor, “Yvette”, and transport yourself to whatever star system you came from….or just STFU and SYAD.

    Anthony

  106. Yvette Doll said,

    “You’re right, you know. I wasn’t sure when Cath first said it but I’ve now done a bit of digging.”

    Good luck to you, and if you develop a talent (hitherto hidden) for research, pray try to find out if any of the 18 percent referred to by the IWF repeatedly, were ever prosecuted, or are they operating escort agency web-sites.

    :o))

    “This compared with just 0.2 percent of potentially illegal content that appears to be hosted in Britain, down from 18 percent in 1997.”

    I just happen to know that the IWF have been asked for years to ‘prove it’. I am not going to defend the US pornography sector, but I am not buying into the British theory that the USA is hosting half of the world’s child pornography.

    Especially, as the Brits, have an unfailing talent, for child abuse scandals, and not being able to substantiate their claims.

    For example, how many of the 18 percent, and we are talking about almost a fifth of the world’s CP (apparently) are now running care-homes or whtever, is that an unreasonable question?

    Yvette

    http://www.russianspy.org/category/crime/child-abuse/

    Russia And U.S. Host Most Internet Child Abuse

    The United States and Russia host the bulk of the world’s child abuse Web sites, according to a British-based Internet monitoring group which identifies the UK as one of the countries with the best enforcement records, Reuters news agency reports.

    The Internet Watch Foundation (IWF) reported on Tuesday that just over half (51 percent) of child abuse content was traced back to the United States and 20 percent to Russia.

    This compared with just 0.2 percent of potentially illegal content that appears to be hosted in Britain, down from 18 percent in 1997.
    “The UK has benefited from a concerted effort from the online industry which has sought to take down these Web sites and from the authorities which have demonstrated a determination to tackle the problem,†said the IWF’s Peter Robbins.

  107. Iamcuriousblue said,

    “Oh, wait a minute, hold up……this is actually a GUY???”

    I don’t think that’s been established. Its based on the Cath using the old “You must be a man” canard, albeit this time against a faux ally.

    I’ll simply point out that fools come in all genders, and foolishness is foolishness, no matter who it comes from.

  108. Renegade Evolution said,

    IACB, he’s either a dude, or some asshole trying to use someone elses academic creds.

  109. Yvette Doll said,

    “You do know, of course, the the “NAMBLA” portion of the title of my blog entry refers to the tactic common with right-wing fascists of linking any group that dares to challenge them on the merits of the facts with that particular organization. It implies absolutely NO endorsement whatsoever of that organization’s policies.”

    Lets not red herring this out, I think some communists, genuinely support NAMBLA.

    NAMBLA did reasonably well in getting endorsements from a variety of high profile organizations and individuals.

    Pro-sex-feminism was particularly supportive of them.

    In Britain an ACLU parallel with the Paedophile Information Exchange and PAL would be the NCCL (now Liberty). If there was a difference, the pedophiles, with the NCCL were sitting right up front.

    The NCCL in 1975, invited the Paedophile Information Exchange and Paedophile Action for Liberation to affiliate. In 1976, Tom O’Carroll was invited to address the NCCL conference, the NCCL viewed paedophiles as an oppressed minority whose civil liberties needed to be defended. The NCCL also wanted to abolish the age of consent, a policy they shared with other groups.

    “The abolition of age-of-consent laws. We recognise the right of individuals to enter into the sexual relations they choose provided this does not conflict with the rights of others. Alternative legislation to protect children from sexual abuse.”

    The remnants of the Communist Party (GB) are still working the theme and historically, there were numerous groups campaigning for the rights of children to have sex with other people.

    http://www.cpgb.org.uk/documents/cpgb/prog_demands.html

    The concept of (so-called) feminism, as a mechanism, for delivering ‘children’s sexual rights’ minus an age of consent, is not restricted to the pro-sex feminist lobby in the USA.

    Yvette

  110. Iamcuriousblue said,

    “IACB, he’s either a dude, or some asshole trying to use someone elses academic creds.”

    Again, I don’t know what establishes this troll as being any particular gender, but its not an argument worth pursuing, so I’ll drop it.

    In any event, the old “do not feed” advice probably applies at this point.

  111. Yvette Doll said,

    Cath Elliott said,

    “I’d just like to disassociate myself from Yvette Doll’s comments on this and other threads”

    There goes the back catalogue. I’ am in inrecession.

    That is fan tazy dozy I don’t remember asking for a partnership, so don’t flatter yourself.

    “Yvette (btw, why are you pretending to be a woman?)”

    Is that my Andy Warhol reference or something. Cath. I’ve been Yvette Doll for three decades and millions of records so why don’t you just go and wise-up or go tell teacher or something?

    “The pro-sex feminazis”

    I am not a big fan of Paglia and etc.

    That is not to be confused with a real feminist of course. I don’t like pimp groupies or fake feminists who endorse adults having sex with children.

    I do tend to judge and I don’t allow McCarthyism and bullet-proof vest words like ‘gay’ or ‘feminist’ to get between the nature of the thing and the remedy.

    Paglia is a NAMBLA supporter, and can’t be a feminist.

    Pimp groupies can’t be feminists

    Yvette Doll

  112. Renegade Evolution said,

    “yvette”

    What you seem to be missing here are the words of every single sex positive feminist who is saying ‘we do not support Nambla, or sex with children”

    Your theory sounds a lot like ‘Fords are cars, fords are black, thus, all cars must be black”

  113. Yvette Doll said,

    Renegade

    A pimp groupie, is a supporter of pimping and that is not a feminist.

    Cath Elliott can manage her own career, blog life, I didn’t ask for her help, so if a perceived partnership was dissolved or dissociated, I was unaware of it existing.

    she was trying to let people know ( I suspect) that I use to work with some of the Warhol people. I have no idea why she did that, I don’t really care.

    I don’t concede the ‘feminist’ sobriquet to pimp groupies.

    I speak for myself, I wish Cath well, my own view, which I have held from the NCCL days, with PIE and the GLF,

    is that I don’t allow ‘smokescreen’ words to buy a pimp a break, or a pimp groupie.

    A pimp groupie is not a feminist.

    Yvette

  114. Iamcuriousblue said,

    “she was trying to let people know ( I suspect) that I use to work with some of the Warhol people. I have no idea why she did that, I don’t really care.”

    You weren’t the one that shot him back in ’68, were you?

    -smirk-

  115. Yvette Doll said,

    I liked Andy

  116. voltairespriest said,

    I don’t think that’s been established. Its based on the Cath using the old “You must be a man” canard, albeit this time against a faux ally.

    No, it isn’t just based on that, not any more 😉

  117. voltairespriest said,

    Good luck to you, and if you develop a talent (hitherto hidden) for research, pray try to find out if any of the 18 percent referred to by the IWF repeatedly, were ever prosecuted, or are they operating escort agency web-sites.

    Copy’n’pasting figures does not a researcher make, mate. IP trackers and the ability to check your details, do. 🙂

  118. Natalia Antonova said,

    It’s definitely not just Cath, IACB. Either Yvette is a dude, or she’s taking credit for a dude’s work. That much is obvious to me now.

  119. Red Maria said,

    Awright, awright, let’s stop the dissing and start engaging.

    Some of the things Yvette Doll has said have piqued my interest.

    She (or he) is being a bit scattergun in her (or his) arguments, for example by implying that Paglia is soft on child abuse because her works have been praised by the likes of NAMBLA and by suggesting that pro-sex feminism is in cahoots with paedophiles.

    But she (or he) is right to point out that peadophile groups, like PIE and PAL, had links to NCCL in the 70s. In fact, I think these links continued until as late as the 80s.

    I have, somewhere, a pile of documents from NCCL, as then was, which make plain he extent to which the arguments of paedophile groups were tolerated in those days. I may dig them out and post up a few quotations a bit later.

  120. Renegade Evolution said,

    perhaps they were tolerated…almost 30 years ago. is that a fair reason to tar and feather all sex positive feminists who are out there right now?

  121. Red Maria said,

    Oh no, absolutely not, Renegade Evolution and I don’t mean to suggest any equivalence between sex-positive feminists and paedophile groups now. I should make that absolutely clear.

    No, what I’m referring to is a strange footnote in the history of radical politics; that is how in the 70s using entry tactics, paedophile groups attempted to infliltrate civil liberties and other left-wing groups.

  122. Natalia Antonova said,

    Well, it’s kind of like all of those leftists who were willing to completely overlook Stalin’s crimes against his people, back in the day…

  123. redpesto said,

    Meanwhile, very early on in this thread, Cath Elliot posted:

    “No she’s not, it’s just another boring silencing technique, in the same way that radical feminists who have consistently argued this issue from a violence against women perspective are constantly derided as being in bed with Mary Whitehouse and other similar Victorian-style thinkers.”

    The problem with the ‘violence against women’ argument was first identified when feminists started using it about porn (just as Yvette ‘The Troll’ Doll’s ever-wilder accusations of paedophilia were part of attempts to shut down any debate about porn made/consumed by consenting adults). The difficulty is locating exactly where the ‘violence’ occurs regarding prostitution, because it’s clear it’s not just in the use of threats or physical force.

    One favoured trope of many anti-prostitution feminists is that the women is literally ‘bought’, and therefore prostitution is a form of slavery. Yet as others have argued, what is in fact ‘bought’ can either be a sexual service or the woman’s time and expertise – she is no more ‘bought’ than someone who is paid for any other kind of (non-sexual) service. (This about the only way one could distinguish between a consensual agreement to exchange money for a legal activity (sex), and a woman being coerced into it). Put it another way: if a man pays a woman minimum wage to scrub his floor, he’s an employer; if there’s an agreement that he pays her minimum wage to dress up in a maid’s outfit and pretend to scrub his floor because it’s sexy (at least for him), he’s allegedly committing an act of violence and the woman is degraded.

    Assuming that no actual force or threats are used, the difficulty seems to be either with the idea of consent or the nature of the exchange. In the former, it boils down to a politics of ‘ickiness’ – someone else doing something or making a choice that one wouldn’t do oneself. Given the history of feminists insisting on respecting another woman’s choices, it seems odd to start criticising them for making ones they wouldn’t make themselves; one feminist might not do anal or BDSM, but she’s not in a position to criticise another woman who does (well, that’s the theory…). With the latter, it’s repeatedly hard to tell exactly what it is about the exchange that some feminists so vehemently object to: it could be the cash (drawing on an ideology that says ‘real sex’ is free, or that some things or activities are beyond price); it could be the sex (which takes place outside of a an ideology of romantic love/coupledom/ideas that sex is private); it could be the fact that it’s a man who’s paying (a tidy little symbol of alleged hetero-patriarchal power, which ignores the right of the woman to refuse, and also side-steps that women with enough economic clout and sexual wants might pay a man); or that he’s paying a woman (which would explain why feminist anti-prostitution campaigners have so little to say about commercial gay sex – there are no women to defend/help/rescue). It could even be that sex is such a private and personal matter – and the genitals supposedly even more so – that the notion of ‘buying’ the woman hinges on the idea that a woman’s vagina has huge symbolic value (which, funnily enough, patriarchal and religious groups have a habit of thinking as well, which might explain the inconsistent attitudes to prostitutes throughout history).

    In other words, the ‘violence’ is no more than a cover for objections to sex which does not take place in a context of (in this instance) private, romantic, heterosexual coupledom, along with a horror of ‘trade’. It’s why punters are seen both as ‘losers’ (they pay for what ‘real men’ or ‘decent men’ get for free) *and* as ‘consumers’ (the like/want sex enough to be happy to pay for it, much as one might like food enough to pay a cook). It’s why prostitutes are regarded as both victims and as threats to hearth and home (and other women).

    The reason the charge of sexual conservatism sticks is because of the difficulty anti-prostitution campaigners (like their anti-porn sisters) have with the idea of consenting adults entering a commercial agreement for an activity that already has its fair share of stigma, shame and awkwardness in the first place – paid-for sex is not ‘normal’ sex; sex is made an exception of when compared to other activities – otherwise they’d stick to helping the women who wanted assistance, and not invest so much time and energy trying to criminalise just about everything and everyone else. That was the mistake of the ‘social purity’ feminists of the first wave; it’s what happened with the second-wave anti-porn movement; now it looks like their descendants are repeating the same mistake (having learnt and forgotten nothing) – or at least are just shouting more loudly about it in the hope of drowning out everyone else.

  124. Iamcuriousblue said,

    One could make the same argument about gay rights groups, since, as somebody who remembers sexual politics from back in the day, NAMBLA had a presence there too. Is Yvette Doll going to categorically denounce the gay rights movement too? If she’s being consistent, that’s what her position leads to.

    And while I agree some creepy pro-pedophile groups and individuals who were riding on the back of the sex-poz and gay rights movements, in defense of the 1980s, I’ll at least say that back then there was a conversation at the time about cross-generational sex, etc of which NAMBLA and the like represented a decidedly very extreme and off-the-wall view. These days, I’d say what we have is the opposite extreme, with a lot of people who get mileage out of accusing people of pedophilia for liking things like schoolgirl outfits or shaved pubic hair.

  125. Anthony Kennerson said,

    Well, ladies and gentlemen, I now have confirmation: “Yvette Doll” is indeed a guy.

    Actually, he is Gregory Carlin, who heads up the Irish Anti-Trafficking Coalition.

    Really, Mr. Carlin…were you really a former pop singer, or are you just using “Yvette Doll” as a ruse to confuse people here.

    Whatever….however you wish to sign yourself, your methods and your arguments still suck.

    Oh….and NAMBLA STILL gets no love from me or any other “sex positive”
    person, whether they be feminist or not. Again, my use of their name in my post is purely a means to describe antiprostitution/antiporn tactics in silencing their critics, and is NO endorsement of their ideas.

    But thanks for playing, Mr. Carlin.

    Anthony

  126. Anthony Kennerson said,

    Oh, and one last thing, Mr. Carlin: I’m one who despises Camille Paglia with a passion for being a front-runner and a brownose sniffer who uses her alleged “sex positivity” as a mere patina to cover her right-wing libertarian ass….and even I can’t find one bit of evidence to prove in any way that she in any way supports pedophilia.

    But, perhaps, you can regal me with sorme solid evidence???

    Anthony

  127. Iamcuriousblue said,

    “Oh, and one last thing, Mr. Carlin: I’m one who despises Camille Paglia with a passion for being a front-runner and a brownose sniffer who uses her alleged “sex positivity” as a mere patina to cover her right-wing libertarian ass….and even I can’t find one bit of evidence to prove in any way that she in any way supports pedophilia.”

    Paglia defended Alan Ginsberg when he was taking heat for his NAMBLA membership and defense of that group. So did a number of other people. Which I think is not at all the same thing as defending pedophilia per se.

  128. Iamcuriousblue said,

    “Meanwhile, very early on in this thread, Cath Elliot posted:

    ‘No she’s not, it’s just another boring silencing technique, in the same way that radical feminists who have consistently argued this issue from a violence against women perspective are constantly derided as being in bed with Mary Whitehouse and other similar Victorian-style thinkers.'”

    Thanks for bringing this up again, redpesto, after YDs long thread derail, because there are several points worth addressing. (Also, a big “what you said” to the remainder of redpesto’s post.)

    As somebody who has made the above mentioned “boring and silencing” accusation many times, I want to elaborate on that point. The reason many of us make this point is because there happens to be some truth to it, and whether the radfems don’t like it being mentioned is, well, tough. (And I’ll also note that as vocal and as profuse as the radfem/abolitionist side is, I think accusations of silencing are a case of protesting too much.)

    First, alliances between radfems and the right on this issue – this is indeed well-documented, and I can easily find references on this if called on it. There was an express alliance around this issue in the 1980s during the era of the Meese Commission hearings, and the fact that the Dworkin/MacKinnon Ordinance got some mileage in the 1980s was as much due to right-wing support as feminist campaigning.

    And, OK, you could say that’s old news along the lines of the above-mentioned pedophile fringe of the sex-poz and gay rights movement. But then what about the contemporary “abolitionist” alliance against the sex industry? Which is, in the US at least, very much an alliance between radfems, neocons, and the religious right (which a few people like Donna Hughes who are actually both radfems and neocons). And in the UK is an alliance between radfems and New Labourites.

    Second – “Victorian”. For that, I’ll simply point to no less a radical feminist figure than Sheila Jeffreys, who in her book The Spinster and her Enemies, expressly aligns with Victorian social purity movements and sees the contemporary radical feminist movement as their continuation.

    Third, and this gets to the heart of the issue – for those of us who simply don’t subscribe to either a conservative religious or radical feminist world-view, a lot of the sexual politics of radical feminism and old-line social conservatives look pretty damn similar indeed. They are both based on a deeply moralistic view of sexuality (albeit, a different morality than traditional religious views) and, most unfortunately, a similar desire to impose their particular brand of sectarian sexual morality on others through force of law. And that strikes me as inherently reactionary, no matter how supposedly “progressive” the ideology such moralism derives from.

    The analogy I would make is the critique that the more libertarian left has made against Soviet- and Chinese-style communism. Some leftists, particularly those who belonged to the more “tankie” Marxist-Leninist groups, were prone to defend things like secret police, prison camps, the invasion and occupation of other countries, etc when it was done by “socialist” countries. Many among the less authoritarian left saw such things as inherently inexcusable – no better in the defense of “real existing socialism” than when used as tool for shoring up imperialism. Similarly, censorship, union-busting, and stigmatization of sexual minorities don’t magically become right or progressive just because it happens to be done in the name of feminism.

  129. SnowdropExplodes said,

    “Yvette”:

    As someone who’s actually looked at the case law, and seen the transcripts of cases, and who has read the evidence given by the British Government in its consultations on banning simple possession of “extreme pornography” and on banning simple possession of drawings of naked children that are deemed sexual, I can tell you that there have definitely been people who have been prosecuted.

    As someone who has had extensive contact over the past couple of years with campaigners helping those wrongly accused under Operation Ore, I can tell you that a LOT of people went to prison, and plenty of them died there either as suicide or as murder victims.

    I do not have the statistics near to hand, but a lot of the people on the Sex Offenders Register are in fact people who have been to jail for child porn crimes.

    In other words, all your claims are BS.

  130. Yvette Doll said,

    “Copy’n’pasting figures does not a researcher make, mate. IP trackers and the ability to check your details, do. ”

    You can’t be that good. I *originate* statistics.

    I often work at Westminster, most of our statistics, we got ourselves over years of hard slogging with PQs, court cases & etc.

    You James Bond away to your hearts content.

    At a point Britain hosted almost a fifth of the world’s child pornography, nobody very much was going to jail, in fact, it could be a straight nobody.

    So it is silly for the IWF to be blasting Russia (or the USA)

    Yvette Doll

  131. Yvette Doll said,

    “I do not have the statistics near to hand, but a lot of the people on the Sex Offenders Register are in fact people who have been to jail for child porn crimes. In other words, all your claims are BS.”

    A not to hand rebuttal it is then.

    In the USA, I would be the first port of call, not the second, but the first, in relation to anything to do with the NCIS or NCS or Jim Gamble and that is accurately reflected in academic research & papers etc.

    I know less than what I would like, ( I concede my ignorance) but I understand far more than any British journalist or UK academic. It is not an area of work I sought, I approached it with sadness and reluctance.

    It is unfortunate for the British Home Office, to be upsetting so many people.

    “At a point when Britain hosted almost a fifth of the world’s child pornography, nobody very much was going to jail, in fact, it could be a straight nobody.”

    So we have to work the problem from the beginning.

    Yvette Doll

  132. Yvette Doll said,

    “Which is, in the US at least, very much an alliance between radfems, neocons, and the religious right (which a few people like Donna Hughes who are actually both radfems and neocons). And in the UK is an alliance between radfems and New Labourites.”

    Prime Minister Tony Blair (always) opposed US policies relating to child pornography or sex trafficking, he intervened in person, his office would over-rule the Home Office or whatever, there was no corollary or reflection there.

    In the British Isles lobbyists continued onwards from the Protection of Children Act 1978 and the ‘democratic’ part of that was Mary Whitehouse. The Salvation Army ( a democratic constituency) has same agenda since the late 1800s, without any point of cessation, the domestic ‘English’ part didn’t stop.

    The US foreign policy aspects were dictated by war, it didn’t really matter what *anybody* said, no matter how elevated they were in neocon circles, the emergencies ( Iraq & etc.) trumped those other policies. Prof Hughes worked & lived in England, so a co-territory for her perhaps.

    Yvette Doll

  133. Yvette Doll said,

    “Similarly, censorship, union-busting, and stigmatization of sexual minorities don’t magically become right or progressive just because it happens to be done in the name of feminism.”

    Which of the radical feminists are we comparing to Stalin?

    Have you a tankie list?

    Yvette Doll

  134. Yvette Doll said,

    “Paglia defended Alan Ginsberg when he was taking heat for his NAMBLA membership and defense of that group. So did a number of other people. Which I think is not at all the same thing as defending pedophilia per se.”

    Revisionism! Paglia supported kiddie porn and NAMBLA.

    “Right, you’re a neocon.” Now, when people call me a neocon, what kind of idiots are they? I’m someone who is on the record as being pro-pornography–all the way through kiddie porn and snuff films. I’m pro-prostitution–I mean really pro, not just pro-prostitute and against prostitution.’

    http://gos.sbc.edu/p/paglia.html

    What we have is pro-prostitution fanatics, tankies, communists, recently paroled sex offenders, and people in Hawaiian shirts,

    Pedophiles have been associated with pro-sex feminism since the 1960s.

    Yvette

  135. voltairespriest said,

    You can’t be that good. I *originate* statistics.

    You see, they have a thing within the government that internet trolls don’t usually get secret service or top-level research jobs. Particularly tinfoil hatted ones. Hey, how’s the weather over there? Been chilly here. 😉

  136. Yvette Doll said,

    I have already been (successfully) outed as something else.

    I did shows and productions for some of the Warhol people, ballet, classical profiteering, goth culture, mininum wave, gay oriented musical content, that’s is indeed me.

    Three or four of our chums have met me in person, including the odd Stalinist neocon sex negative anti-Paglia etc.

    So from Edinburgh to Estonia,

    Yvette Doll

  137. voltairespriest said,

    You are what you are. I would be too much of a gentleman but at least it’s clear where you’re coming from now.

  138. Yvette Doll said,

    “Really, Mr. Carlin…were you really a former pop singer, or are you just using “Yvette Doll” as a ruse to confuse people here.”

    None of the Yvette Doll persona sang in the sense of competently singing as far as I am aware.

    In fact Yvette Doll ( as Lou Stein) drudgerously performing several Christa Päffgen songs, almost provoked a riot ( in Cambridge, England) in the late 1970s.

    The punk ‘Yvette Doll’ song

    http://recordcollectorsoftheworldunite.com/artists/xpozez/xpozez.html

    was ( in my opinion) also not intended to be flattering review and was a potentially negative appraisal of the incorrigibly off-key chanteuse

    A Yvette Doll production was as likely to be a Diana Dors album with a pro-gay theme.

    Do you want to purchase a YD franchise, a coffee shop perhaps?

    Yvette Doll

  139. voltairespriest said,

    Do you want help?

  140. Jules said,

    “writers favouring prohibition… cry “feminism” in defence of what in the analysis are very socially conservative politics”

    VP, you haven’t demonstrated in any way that Cath Elliott’s arguments are socially conservative other than by innuendo. Why not substantiate your claims by critically engaging with her arguments rather than just slinging labels at her?

  141. Yvette Doll said,

    With a coffee shop? so long as we don’t let any statistically challenged Scot-PEP folks reconcile the till, it could be profitable

    A disenchanted theme forest, is what we need.

    Yvette Doll

  142. Yvette Doll said,

    “Cath Elliott’s arguments are socially conservative other than by innuendo. Why not substantiate your claims by critically engaging with her arguments rather than just slinging labels at her?”

    It depends what you mean by social conservative, the basis of society, is regulation and state actoring,

    If somebody says, being drunk in charge of a Thames river boat, or an articulated truck, is wrong or unwise, that’s conservative, in the sense, it isn’t wildly laissez faire in the ‘do as you please’ stakes.

    So to tag somebody as a ‘conservative’ because of ‘commonsense’ is perhaps a little desperate.

    So if the Vatican says selling crack to 9 year olds, is bad, and a feminist, also says selling crack to 9 year olds is etc.

    It is silly to invent a Vatican – Feminist coalition, which isn’t (completely) there.

    Though there would be agreement on a specific problem.

    Yvette Doll

  143. voltairespriest said,

    Why not substantiate your claims by critically engaging with her arguments rather than just slinging labels at her?

    Yes I have. Re-read and try again. Clue: it’s part of an ongoing debate, you have to read it all.

  144. Yvette Doll said,

    “Is Yvette Doll going to categorically denounce the gay rights movement too? If she’s being consistent, that’s what her position leads to.”

    At a time when Labour politicians were climbing onto the same platforms as pedophiles, I opposed both the Labour people, and the pedophiles.

    When the GLF, PIE, and PAL, or COC called us straight, we called them pedophiles, because they were pedophiles, or they were supporting pedophiles or had substantial pedophile memberships.

    President Clinton & jesse Helms, took UN related positions, not widely at variance.

    Oddly enough President Bush, at the moment, has had the most radical of ‘gay’ policies ( at the UN) and not in the conservative sense

    So the war in Iraq, delivered Bush backing ( via the British) for radical gay liberation.

    So a Bush/Gay ultra queer coalition.

    :o))

    Yvette Doll

  145. Jules said,

    mmm, the “ongoing debate” appears to be her putting forward an argument – in this case
    that the IUSW are less representative of Sex Workers than some libertarian supporters of legalisation of the sex trade would like to make out – and you responding by saying that what she says “isn’t really the point” and then implying that she is a puritan and a man hater (the sort of smears that could have come straight from the pages of the Sun).

    So again – on what basis are you labeling Cath a puritan and a conservative?

  146. Yvette Doll said,

    “Ok, now you look really nuts.”

    The Pensylvania State University, the pornography lobby, they’ve had dialgue about the British security services, the most pro-porn cop on the planet is probably a Britisher.

    PSU’s faculty of obscenity, catalogs ASACP’s agenda in much the same way as Gert Hekma would catalog the history of the COC or whatever. Financial transactioning, is global, not insular, the porn trade needs credit cards.

    The British security services are favored, lobbied, flattered, encouraged, and visited in person by the representatives of the US porn industry.

    That makes it way into ( controversial) law reviews etc. and I’ve been referred to as well in the same context in the same papers.

    The pornography industry had wanted to use ‘children’ to lobby Obama.

    “The reason why ASACP is uniquely and ideally suited to assist the adult entertainment industry in its efforts to effect positive changes in government regulation and public perception in the new political environment we are entering can be summed up in one word: children.”

    The porn industry invests in what is good for the porn industry, they are like big tobacco, it is about using anything for leverage, and self-presevation.

    http://asacp.org/Greg_Piccionelli_Letter_120308.pdf

    So there is a filing cabinet about me at PSU, I don’t really think Hustler are naming a building after me.

    Yvette Doll

  147. Fubsic said,

    on what basis are you labeling Cath a puritan and a conservative?

    Um, the fact that she is.

    Shocking. But. True.

    For all her leftist posturing, Cath Elliott is as progressive as a corset.

    And you, sir, are a prune, in my objective opinion.

  148. Fubsic said,

    That was meant for “Jules”, not “Yvette Doll”.

    “Jules” is a prune.

    “Yvette Doll” is merely a fruitcake.

  149. Jules said,

    Well argued.

  150. Fubsic said,

    Huh, you can talk Mr totally derivative critical-engagement-with-something-you’ve-not-bothered-reading.

    But go on. Entertain me. Gimme some of those hot dang dialectical skills of yours.

    Within sixtyfivethousand business days.

  151. voltairespriest said,

    Jules: type “sex workers feminism” into the search box and you will quickly discover that there has been more than one article on this. Then look at Renegade Evolution, Better Burn That Dress, Sister, Liberal Conspiracy, et al. You’ll see the logic fairly obviously. Or at least try.

  152. Fubsic said,

    Don’t encourage him. He’ll get turned on.

  153. Jules said,

    The onus isn’t on me to “entertain” you, you weird creep. I’ve ask for proof of assertions that I haven’t yet received.

    Now kindly go fuck yourself, and I say that as a prune.

  154. Jules said,

    So still nothing then VP?

  155. Fubsic said,

    See whaddamean?

    Now kindly go fuck yourself, and I say that as a prune.

    Heh heh heh. But no peeking now, boychik.

    Those were precisely the dazzling dialectical skills I was talking about.

    Isn’t he an absolutely scrumptious little star?

  156. voltairespriest said,

    For the love of God Jules, if your typing fingers have lost their ability to function then here’s a quote from… me.

    Now, maybe Cath and I read different newspapers but I certainly haven’t noticed supporters of Jacqui Smith’s recent proposals, or conservative feminists in general (by which I mean moralists who see puritan legislation as the solution to this issue) being howled down by IUSW or ECP supporters.

    It doesn’t say “Cath is a puritan”, it says she supports a puritan piece of legislation. I appreciate that reading comprehension skills differ nationwide, but I think I made that pretty clear.

    Here comes another, from one of those previous posts that eluded you (it refers to Jacqui Smith’s legislative proposals):

    Why is it that some feminists seem determined to back this, in spite of the voices of advocacy groups for sex workers clamouring against it and the vast amount of qualitative evidence which suggests it would not work? I think it actually comes down to strands within feminism (and I am not speaking about all feminists here by any stretch) which seem to think that members of oppressed groups who also happen to be women are essentially passive “victim figures” incapable of any emancipatory activity which is not prescribed by their more enlightened (usually white, often middle class) sisters in the media or academia. There is an inherent conservatism there which patronises and marginalises voices which do not fit the expected norm, and I think there is a little of that at work here.

    As I said, an ongoing debate, in which you have to read the series. Now stop being wilfully thick, and go read some stuff. 🙂

  157. Fubsic said,

    Phwoar, Jules is giving it hard ‘n’ strong.

    Watch him as he lets fly with his wit! Gasp as he skewers his opponents!

    Or

    more likely

    roll your eyes

    as yet another one of his comments droops dismally

    and

    inevitably disappoints.

    As always.

    Poor hopeless prune.

  158. voltairespriest said,

    Good night was it Jules? Remarkably pugnacious tonight for such an ascetic writer 😆

  159. voltairespriest said,

    “Droops” you say, Fubsic? How dare you use such imagery! “Yvette” will soon return and accuse of of being a Nazi Paedophile Stormtrooper From Aries or something!

  160. Fubsic said,

    And I will respond that fruitcake is best consumed seated, with a cup of darjeeling.

  161. voltairespriest said,

    “Oh, what, no response from Jules? I can only conclude that he has been routed by my rapier rhetoric and has vanished like Brigadoon into the thin air”….

  162. Fubsic said,

    He lost his nerve and found he couldn’t perform.

    As ever.

  163. Yvette Doll said,

    “Now, maybe Cath and I read different newspapers but I certainly haven’t noticed supporters of Jacqui Smith’s recent proposals, or conservative feminists in general (by which I mean moralists who see puritan legislation as the solution to this issue) being howled down by IUSW or ECP supporters.”

    The IUSW are supporting Max Hardcore & his ilk, which more or less solves most of our questions.

    “Max fists her ass, and she pisses on herself. To close out the show, she drinks Max’s piss as he urinates on her face.”

    Of course, I suppose, it depends on one’s views on commercial & extreme misogyny.

    Yvette Doll

  164. voltairespriest said,

    Beddiebyes time, G ;).

  165. Yvette Doll said,

    How safe is British porn?

    The pornography sector, and brothel keeping, and lap-dancing agencies are often connected to terrorists, criminals, and gangsters.

    “The command structure of the LVF had changed ts leader is currently an older, former-UVF man from Belfast, and Portadown is no longer its main powerbase, though its members there are still active, mainly dealing drugs and making pornographic films”

    https://www.tribune.ie/archive/article/2002/jun/16/blood-brothers-love-consummated-in-death/

    Jacqui Smith has ben asked to look into child pornography produced via adult sector activities in both parts of Ireland.

    Yvette Doll

  166. Iamcuriousblue said,

    “VP, you haven’t demonstrated in any way that Cath Elliott’s arguments are socially conservative other than by innuendo. Why not substantiate your claims by critically engaging with her arguments rather than just slinging labels at her?”

    Jules, I think I’ve argued that point in depth at #128 if you’d care to read it. And I’ll repeat the crux of my argument – I don’t think sexual moralism, especially moralism based on a narrow sectarian belief system which is imposed on others, is ever going to be anything other than social conservatism. And I really don’t think that just because one declares one’s moral basis to be feminism or socialism that this suddenly makes that kind of narrow sexual moralism progressive.

    I think its pretty well established by now that that left puritanism is as real of a phenomenon as the old-school right-wing kind. And its social effects aren’t any more salutary. Its unfortunate that there are many feminists (and some socialists) who haven’t figured this out.

  167. Anthony Kennerson said,

    Ahhhh, Yvette…ahhh, I mean, Greg….you’re even more of an idiot and a crank than I ever imagined.

    Name me anywhere where the IUSW have EVER supported or even spoken about the Max Hardcore case….not even those who oppose Hardcore’s conviction on fundamental civil liberties grounds (and who are as disgusted with the specific content of his films as ever, but see his conviction as an act of scapegoating and targeting of consensual sexual speech) would ever assume a connection between Hardcore’s work and child porn. That, I’m afraid, is more a figment of your fevered imagination.

    Oh…and a couple of Ulster gangsters in Northern Ireland making their own porn films no more proves complicity of “organized crime” in the porn industry (let alone any connection between kiddie porn and the mainstream adult sex media) than the existence of the Ku Klux Klan condemns every single Catholic as a rabid rapist. and pedophile.

    (Oh..and why aren’t you hoisting your firepower at the rampant and REAL pedophilia ongoing in the Catholic priesthood, Greg?? Or is smacking porn so much more easier and profitable for you than attacking real abusers??)

    As for Cath: well, I’m not going to pass judgment on her personal political views, other than to disagree with them on the issue of sex work and porn. I’m sure that on other issues she is quite progressive indeed, even a leftist….it’s her views expressed here on this subject that is at issue here. There have been Puritan Leftists before her, and there will be many after her.

    Anthony

  168. Yvette Doll said,

    “Paglia defended Alan Ginsberg when he was taking heat for his NAMBLA membership and defense of that group. So did a number of other people. Which I think is not at all the same thing as defending pedophilia per se.”

    Curious Blue

    You were completely wrong, she defended somebody because ahe agreed with that person and in your failing to accept that you were wrong,

    you pursue error piled upon error, making a habit out of erroneousness, and that applies to what you are saying about Cath Elliott.

    “I don’t think sexual moralism, especially moralism based on a narrow sectarian belief system which is imposed on others, is ever going to be anything other than social conservatism”

    That is not what Cath is doing, sexual moralism, as a product of global cultures, can be a United Nations of fundamentally diverse and often incongruous elements.

    Yvette Doll

  169. Yvette Doll said,

    “no more proves complicity of “organized crime” in the porn industry (let alone any connection between kiddie porn and the mainstream adult sex media) than the existence of the Ku Klux Klan condemns every single Catholic as a rabid rapist. and pedophile.”

    I think you are being a little silly.

    Some of the lap dancing agencies in England worked hand in glove with terrorists, gangsters, and drug dealers and whoever else in Ireland.

    Irish terrorism was and is connected to prostitution and pornography and that most definitely includes England.

    We can discuss Dutch, Spanish, and Irish organized crime as it relates to pornography, prostitution, drugs at the same time.

    The Irish were sought after ‘soldiers’ by several mafia gangs in Europe, and some of the, became leaders ( in their own right) of racketeering in Europe.

    Yvette Doll

  170. Yvette Doll said,

    “Or is smacking porn so much more easier and profitable for you than attacking real abusers?”

    I am opposed to the promotion of prostitution by some elements of the Catholic Church. I must have forgotten to mention it.

    That is certainly an area we need to focus on. I understand the Vatican may have reservations in relation to the same phenomena.

    Bishop Manfred Grothe with concerns:
    Official Web Site: http://www.erzbistum-paderborn.de/
    Mailing Address: Domplatz 3, D-33098 Paderborn, Bundesrepublik Deutschland
    Telephone: (05251)1250
    Fax: 12.54.70
    info@erzbistum-paderborn.de

    http://www.lifesitenews.com/ldn/2006/may/06050408.html

    For letters of support or condemnation.

    Yvette Doll

  171. Iamcuriousblue said,

    “Paglia defended Alan Ginsberg when he was taking heat for his NAMBLA membership and defense of that group. So did a number of other people. Which I think is not at all the same thing as defending pedophilia per se.”

    Citation please. I want to see exactly what she was defending and in what context rather than your rather creative interpretation of it.

    “You were completely wrong, she defended somebody because ahe agreed with that person and in your failing to accept that you were wrong, you pursue error piled upon error, making a habit out of erroneousness, and that applies to what you are saying about Cath Elliott.”

    Yeah, well, your simply saying I’m wrong doesn’t make me wrong. (Coherent counter-argument please.) Especially coming from somebody who’s stock in trade is conspiracy theories and witch hunt-style accusations of being in league with pedophiles, finished off with totally inappropriate Nazi comparisons as icing on the cake.

    In any event, while I’m up for a civil discussion or debate with practically everybody on this thread, I’m not up for wasting energy on you. Its quite apparent that even your allies don’t take you seriously.

    Basically, you can piss right off.

  172. Yvette Doll said,

    “Citation please. I want to see exactly what she was defending and in what context rather than your rather creative interpretation of it.”

    She was defending herself and her ideas.

    “I’m someone who is on the record as being pro-pornography–all the way through kiddie porn and snuff films. I’m pro-prostitution–I mean really pro, not just pro-prostitute and against prostitution. I’m pro-abortion, pro-homosexuality, pro-drag queens, pro-legalization of drugs. ”

    http://gos.sbc.edu/p/paglia.html

    “Well I have argued that. People say to me that, “Well, what about child pornography?” and my attitude is, “kids having sex with each other? I don’t think is any problem at all, except in so far as you’re making kids do labor, work.”

    She is confrontational for the sake of it and means much of it. One of her (other) failings, is she is a satire of herself.

    “As far as Ginsberg’s pro-NAMBLA stand goes, this is one of the things I most admire him for. I have repeatedly protested the lynch-mob hysteria that dogs the issue of man-boy love. In “Sexual Personae,” I argued that male pedophilia is intricately intertwined with the cardinal moments of Western civilization.”

    http://www.salon.com/april97/columnists/paglia970415.html

    She defended Ginsberg as well obviously.

    “These days, especially in America, boy-love is not only scandalous and criminal, but somehow in bad taste. On the evening news, one sees handcuffed teachers, priests and Boy Scout leaders hustled into police vans. Therapists call them maladjusted, emotionally immature. But beauty has its own laws, inconsistent with Christian morality. As a woman, I feel free to protest that men today are pilloried for something that was rational and honorable in Greece at the height of its civilization.”

    http://www.nambla.org/paglia.htm

    She is also a pimp groupie.

    Yvette

  173. Yvette Doll said,

    “Its quite apparent that even your allies don’t take you seriously.”

    I do success, my colleagues support me for that if nothing else.

    “There is also the fact that he did not abuse himself but only viewed images. Ok if there was not a market probably the images would not be produced but I think there has to be a word of caution in that the law can make criminals of people who have viewed images from a site where child porn exists with out them knowing it plus the age thing ie 1 hour can make all the difference between child abuse and legal viewing meaning being 17 or 18.”

    http://www.ct-escorts.co.uk/forum/index.php?PHPSESSID=9407bba8977a3a8bb2335ecd54c90292&topic=1450.msg14224

    Legal viewing at 17, do we know that Douglas? I hope he is not involved in the sex trade or trade unionism or anything.

    Some of his other stuff is fascinating.

    Yvette

  174. Yvette Doll said,

    “Yeah, well, your simply saying I’m wrong doesn’t make me wrong.”

    By the way, I’m saying it, and you were wrong.

    Yvette

  175. Yvette Doll said,

    “Name me anywhere where the IUSW have EVER supported or even spoken about the Max Hardcore case”

    They are opposed to UK restrictions on his type of material.

    “not even those who oppose Hardcore’s conviction on fundamental civil liberties grounds ”

    Meaning support for his right to produce it?

    Take the ‘barely legal’ phenomena, I think a chap called Douglas was remarking on how difficult it was to tell the legal from the illegal, such is that industry.

    “but I think there has to be a word of caution in that the law can make criminals of people who have viewed images from a site where child porn exists with out them knowing it plus the age thing ie 1 hour can make all the difference between child abuse and legal viewing meaning being 17 or 18.”

    http://www.ct-escorts.co.uk/forum/index.php?PHPSESSID=9407bba8977a3a8bb2335ecd54c90292&topic=1450.msg14224

    I wonder if he is in the IUSW

    “and legal viewing meaning being 17 or 18”

    I’m going to have to ask Jacqui Smith MP to hand out leaflets to the IUSW re: SOA 2003, just in case our industry experts, have yet to read it.

    Yvette

  176. RenegadeEvolution said,

    Good God, Max Hardcore again:

    What part of this do people not understand? He was tried, convicted, and jailed and his company, websites and assets were seized by the US Government….clue here…this means Max is no longer making MOVIES of any kind.

    Guess what…Max’s movies? Not my thing really, but do I think he has a right to make them? Yes. I do.

    The UK porn law? Gods don’t get me started on that. Again. It is so amazingly subjective and poorly worded. Hell, stuff I do and make would get people arrested in the UK, even though there is zero question that the people are of age, consenting, tested, and even happy to be there.

    And a clue here about barely legal porn? A lot of those women are in their twenties.

  177. Yvette Doll said,

    Renegade

    As many as a hundred US pornographers are wired into Switzerland. I did remind you that ASACP came over here to meet Goggins & Gamble & etc.

    I think Eurorevenue do gagthebitch, banging girls heads of bathroom furniture and that kind of women hating thing.

    ASACP I think as well.

    Yvette

    EuroRevenue Enters Into Partnership with Max World Inc.™ Home of Legendary Adult Superstar Max Hardcore®

  178. voltairespriest said,

    And the relevance of this slightly deranged tangent (as with the Nazi accusations, Paedo allusions, bizarre claims to a double life as a government high-up) is what, G?

  179. Yvette Doll said,

    “A lot of those women are in their twenties.”

    In Britain they can be anything.

    We are pressing the Home Dept. Committee to investigate ‘adult’ pornographers in the British Isles using kids.

    Look upon it as a counter balance to what Douglas Fox was doing with his so-called trade unionism.

    “but I think there has to be a word of caution in that the law can make criminals of people who have viewed images from a site where child porn exists with out them knowing it plus the age thing ie 1 hour can make all the difference between child abuse and legal viewing meaning being 17 or 18.”

    http://www.ct-escorts.co.uk/forum/index.php?PHPSESSID=9407bba8977a3a8bb2335ecd54c90292&topic=1450.msg14224

    They don’t seem to know the SOA 2003 age criteria. Which is a bit worrying for a ‘trade unionist’ and industry expert who is lecturing feminists.

    Yvette

  180. Yvette Doll said,

    “And the relevance of this slightly deranged tangent (as with the Nazi accusations, Paedo allusions, bizarre claims to a double life as a government high-up) is what, G?”

    I done a google site search on some of the escort agencies, using ‘Nazi’ as the search word. I suggest you do the same.

    The pornography industry also goes wild for Nazi chic! It is not as if they are sensitive to the issue or anything. It is a vile activity, with horrible people.

    It is hardly my fault politicians ask me to draft their stuff. At least I know more about the age criteria re: SOA 2003 than Douglas Fox.

    Of course, I worked on that legislation..

    :o))

    Yvette

  181. Yvette Doll said,

    “I think Eurorevenue do gagthebitch, banging girls heads of bathroom furniture and that kind of women hating thing.”

    They do indeed do that, it is vile, abusive, depraved and extremely misogynistic.

    gagthebitch is vile depravity as entertainment.

    Yvette

  182. Natalia Antonova said,

    Gregory, are you seriously having a conversation with yourself now? Let us know what they make of Max Hardcore on Vulcan, while you’re at it. I’ve always been curious of their position on the subject.

    Never having been a fan of him, I am, however, surprised at the implication that fisting or urination should not be performed or enjoyed by people who are into it. Looks like we’re back to kink 101. Reminds me of all those comments on the Alternet piece on the subject of a feminist submissive – “you sicko! Stop polluting our pristine movement, you deviant!”

  183. Renegade Evolution said,

    Yvette:

    Once again, you are blurring the lines.

    Dislike his content or not, Hardcore’s work was 2257 compliant.

    The legal porn industry is not the same as some thugs with cameras who make kiddy porn.

    Is there porn that is misognistic? Yep. Is there porn that is not? Yep.

    Are there Nazi-based themes in very small subsets of pornography? Yep. Is it rampant? Nope.

    Does the US, the worlds leader in the production of porn, take the law very, very seriously? Yep.

    Trust me on this, I’ve taken a fair amount of anti-porn academics and “experts” on in my time on a whole lot of subjects, and I am very, very relentless in making sure they’ve not done sloppy research and schoolwork, can back up every accustation with actual fact, and I will not fail to point out shock tactics and directly loaded and gut twisting language. And I am very good at it.

  184. Yvette Doll said,

    “Dislike his content or not, Hardcore’s work was 2257 compliant.

    The legal porn industry is not the same as some thugs with cameras who make kiddy porn.”

    No porn is a continuum, most child pornography is transacted by men who use other forms of hard core pornography, they’re not really pedophiles.

    “gagthebitch is vile depravity as entertainment.”

    That type of user, we moved on, thousands and thousands of computers have been seized by the FBI, police, RCMP, we know what they do, and how they get to the dreadfully abusive place they are existing in.

    The rape of a baby is a few rungs further along the continuum than gag the bitch misogyny, it is about hatred, horror, abuse, violation, transgressiveness.

    gag the bitch is a bad babysitter

    Yvette

  185. Yvette Doll said,

    “Never having been a fan of him, I am, however, surprised at the implication that fisting or urination should not be performed or enjoyed by people who are into it. ”

    Spoken like a true feminist, I would hate to think there were people trying to get into male only golf clubs when

    School Girl Gets Abused! | Free facial cumshot movies
    24 Nov 2008 … b112-300×207 School Girl Gets Abused! Talisama is an innocent 18 year old … Gag the bitch · German goo girls · Japanese bukkake orgy …
    http://www.facial-cumshot.us/2008/11/school-girl-gets-abused/ – 56k – Cached – Similar pages –

    there is a nice big porn industry selling us happy thoughts.

    Yvette

  186. Renegade Evolution said,

    Yvette:

    Proof that this is true, please? Do some people seek out harder porn after becoming bored with softer porn? Yes. Do many others find a type of pornography they like and stick with it? Yes. Do real actual humans out there who are not involved in porn or watch porn engage in rougher edged sex/BDSM/other things you may not like? Why yes, hate to say it, they do. Do countless people watch porn and remain harmless contributing members of society who can socialize and function like everyone else? Why yes, they certainly do.

  187. Renegade Evolution said,

    My goodness, I was just watching GGG right now, actually…

  188. Renegade Evolution said,

    ‘there is a nice big porn industry selling us happy thoughts’

    yes, because humans are all just always so filled with happy thoughts, which is why we have top selling horror, war, gangster and action movies and countless other fluffy bunny forms of entertainment.

  189. Yvette Doll said,

    “Proof that this is true, please? Do some people seek out harder porn after becoming bored with softer porn? ”

    If it has ‘horror’ that will be good enough to get to the other place. Ask you local cops about autopsy photos, crime scene stuff, items from the news saved and tucked away with the gag porn & etc.

    The person viewing is the real life version of the person doing (who is possibly a mental can of worms himself).

    Sociopaths migrate to pornography production.
    .
    Yvette

  190. Renegade Evolution said,

    No, I won’t ask my local cops. Prove it. Pornography of all kinds is viewed by countless humans who do NOT turn into monsters. Like anything, from gambling to video games, porn can lead some people to bad places, but those people already have preexisting issues.

  191. Yvette Doll said,

    “Pornography of all kinds is viewed by countless humans who do NOT turn into monsters”

    Americans may be immune.

    13.7 million child porngraphy transactions over three years in Britain tracked to a handful of (recent) images.

    Map shows where child porn has been downloaded 14 million times in last 3 years

    http://www.newsoftheworld.co.uk/news/article10997.ece

    It is mainstreamed in Britain.

    Yvette

  192. Renegade Evolution said,

    Yvette:

    Then do yourself a favor and stop acting as if legally made adult porn and child porn are the same thing and viewed (and made) by the same people…because I don’t think you can prove that. In fact, I think you are quite wrong. I’ve seen you talk a lot, saying the same odd unproven things over and over simply to bog down and blow other people out of an argument. I’m not so easily distracted when it comes to these subjects, and why yes, I do demand actual and factual proof.

  193. Yvette Doll said,

    “Then do yourself a favor and stop acting as if legally made adult porn and child porn are the same thing and viewed (and made) by the same people”

    They are, the PtP child porn users are gag the bitch fans.

    The 13.7 million trandaction is the tip of the iceberg, based on a *few* images, not the millions in existence.

    Max Hardcore’s material was illegal, as we know. So one set of illegal or criminally obscene and another set of CP illegal.

    The same customers, we know that for sure, because of the thousands of computers seized by poice etc.

    So the schoolteacher, in the Douglas Fox escort agency tableau is a real pedophile, being serviced by an escort agency in Newcastle England.

    Where the teachers are wild, in that way. The sex ed in the City of Newcastle talks about sexual desire of 5 year olds.

    That is where so-called sex-posi ideology goes.

    Yvette

  194. Yvette Doll said,

    “No, I won’t ask my local cops”

    The plaid skirt or school uniform brigade are pedophiles, we have had ten yers of widepread computer seizures.

    Look at Douglas Fox, and his agency, he has teachers asking for the youngest possible girl and a school unform.

    He also was measuring the age of consent by the hour! and his agency does business with people who have a sexual paraphilia for children.

    It is revolting, I’m not surprised the police wanted to arrest him.

    Yvette

    Police worker in escort agency inquiry

    From the Northern Echo, first published Sunday 23rd Jul 2000.

    A POLICE finance officer has been arrested and questioned over allegations that he has been operating an escort agency.

    Civilian worker John Dockerty, 27, was arrested early on Saturday and questioned on suspicion of living off immoral earnings.

    The Durham Police employee had been on sick leave for the past eight months from his post at force headquarters at Aykley Heads, Durham City.

    It is expected he will be suspended while the allegations are investigated.

    Mr Dockerty and his business partner, clothes designer Douglas William Fox, 38, were arrested at their home in Consett, County Durham. The pair were questioned and released on police bail.

    A police spokeswoman confirmed last night that two men, aged 27 and 38, were arrested on Saturday

    Archive Home
    From the Northern Echo
    http://www.thenorthernecho.co.uk
    © Newsquest Media Group 2000

  195. Renegade Evolution said,

    Yvette:

    ‘ “Then do yourself a favor and stop acting as if legally made adult porn and child porn are the same thing and viewed (and made) by the same people”

    They are, the PtP child porn users are gag the bitch fans.”

    PROVE IT. I watch a LOT of rough porn. With rough oral and name calling. All if it has adults in it. I’ve never even SEEN a single image of actual child porn, ever.

    “The 13.7 million trandaction is the tip of the iceberg, based on a *few* images, not the millions in existence.

    Max Hardcore’s material was illegal, as we know. So one set of illegal or criminally obscene and another set of CP illegal.”

    Max Hardcore’s material was found to be obscene (a very subjective thing)- there was no question about the age of the people IN it.

    “The same customers, we know that for sure, because of the thousands of computers seized by poice etc.”

    And what of the MILLIONS of computers not seized by police because the people who own them watch porn, but do not watch child porn? What about those people? THEY are the majority of porn watchers. CAN YOU PROVE OTHERWISE?

    “So the schoolteacher, in the Douglas Fox escort agency tableau is a real pedophile, being serviced by an escort agency in Newcastle England.”

    Can you prove that? No? Thought not.

    “Where the teachers are wild, in that way. The sex ed in the City of Newcastle talks about sexual desire of 5 year olds.”

    Let’s see the curiculum. Now. And even if that IS true, Newcastle is ONE city in a world of…how many?

    “That is where so-called sex-posi ideology goes.”

    Once again, still, and endlessly…incorrect.

    “The plaid skirt or school uniform brigade are pedophiles, we have had ten yers of widepread computer seizures.”

    18 is still 18, which is legal.

    And your obsession with plaid skirts is amazing. I mean really, this woman hardly looks like a child now, does she?

    And Dockerty was arrested…so what? That proves…Nothing.

    Try harder, oh great researcher and academic…

  196. Yvette Doll said,

    “Max Hardcore’s material was found to be obscene (a very subjective thing)- there was no question about the age of the people IN it.”

    It was illegal, lots of people were using his illegal material and making money out of it, child pornography is the same thing, same mechanisms.

    “Can you prove that? No? Thought not.”

    I use to reside in Gosforth, when I was doing TV and stuff. I already had meetings scheduled with the school boards.

    That kind of ‘teacher’ is a pedophile.

    “And what of the MILLIONS of computers not seized by police because the people who own them watch porn”

    not much of an aregument, most people with CP have adult material, the latter time-dated to before the CP.

    There is often a fake school girl intermediate period.

    Yvette

  197. Yvette Doll said,

    “Let’s see the curiculum. Now. And even if that IS true, Newcastle is ONE city in a world of…how many?”

    It really is true. Newcastle ( school board) have major problems which I am going to ask the Home Secretary to fix.

    “The seminar continues this process, aiming to trouble us – and the seminar participants – out of our comfort zones and to question the taken-for-granted of the supposedly sexless, bodiless (except for running noses, leaking bladders and untied shoelaces) and desire-less primary classroom. ”

    It is the Max Hardcore version of elementary sex-ed, five year olds & etc.

    Not so sexless, British teachers are wild.

    Yvette

    Queering the Body; Queering Primary Education

    http://216.239.59.104/search?q=cache:myEXywTzmKYJ:www.schools-out.org.uk/conferences/docs2008/Education%2520and%2520the%2520Body%2520blurb%2520for%2520SIG.doc+queering+primary&hl=en&ct=clnk&cd=2&gl=uk

    Through ongoing debate and exploration during the project, members of the project team have challenged the pervasive images of romantic love and life-long monogamy portrayed by the lesbian and gay characters in the children’s books used in project schools; have questioned the denial and/or repression of their own sexual identities, pleasures, desires and investments; have explored the underpinning cultural and religious discourses which banish sex from sexuality; have raised the need for and purpose of strategic essentialism in relation to sexualities and gender identity; and have challenged each other to go beyond imagined possibilities into queer practice.

  198. Renegade Evolution said,

    You miss something here…even to this day, owning or watching a Max Hardcore film is NOT illegal (well, in the UK it is, but elsewhere? No..) He was arrested, tried and convicted of obscenity and cannot make new movies for the forseeable future. That is a huge difference from his films being illegal material. Chances are, a different jury would find him not guilty. Either way, the films were legally made.

    And you really are obsessed with plaid skirts. a grown woman in a plaid skirt is not going to appeal to someone sexually interested in children…and there are reasons other than the single one you focus on for finding them erotic…but who would want to consider that, right? Ruins the crusade!

    Well, Sex Education the world over sucks and is fucked up. But the thought that young people do not have sexual feelings is…stupid.

    You’ve still proved nothing.

  199. Yvette Doll said,

    “He was arrested, tried and convicted of obscenity and cannot make new movies for the forseeable future. That is a huge difference from his films being illegal material.”

    The material was obscene and therefore illegal.

    He’s a pervert.

    Yvette

  200. Yvette Doll said,

    “a grown woman in a plaid skirt is not going to appeal to someone sexually interested in children”

    I think you should talk to Douglas Fox ( trade unionist & pimp) & his partner.

    Schoolgirl theming is very popular with pedophiles.

    “I really like the plain grey skirt,white blose, small chest in a training bra, black tights and M&S white knickers look. Anyone any suggestions?”

    That sort of thing.

    Yvette Doll

  201. Renegade Evolution said,

    Yvette:

    no one said max wasn’t a pervert.

    She’s still an ADULT WOMAN in the oufit.

  202. Yvette Doll said,

    So you say, I’m sure you are right. It came off your blog, I’m more interested in ‘theming’ with a hint of realism.

    Yvette

  203. Natalia Antonova said,

    You know – I haven’t had the time or energy to keep up with this fascinating… discussion, but I guess when you run out of things to say – the shock tactics begin.

  204. Gregory Carlin said,

    This relevant to ‘age role’ theming)

    Re: British teachers and brothels – Case Reference 2009/0005686

    22 January, 2009

    Dear Mr. Balls

    The e-mail (19 January) relating to Bournemouth, and sent to Professor Donna Hughes, which Vicky Shaw’s acknowedged, concerned educators using brothels in Britain as points of contact for mutual ‘age role’ theming interests.

    CEOP in letters (i) & (ii) to a news editor in North America, seemed to rely upon the fact that the strategic policing of organized pedophilic interests, as related to schools, was a matter reserved for the Department for Children, Schools and Families.

    I would bring to the department’s notice, British teachers are disproportionately involved in prostitution, including running brothels, image clubs, sex tourism to the Czech republic and are frequently associated with large pedophile networks.

    “Secondly, we cannot endorse any association drawn between adult pornography and child sex abuse. Jim Gamble, CEO of the Child Exploitation and Online Protection (CEOP) Centre and Chairman of the Virtual Global Taskforce (VGT)

    There is a standardized understanding, in the United States, re: child protectionists and abolitionists, because of pro-pornography activism by Home Office agencies, that organized ‘age role’ activities by educators, are not under scrutiny from the perspective of risk or behavioral profiling.

    There are also widespread doubts as to whether CEOP are as successful as claimed in the few areas they are willing or able to take responsibility for.

    I would like to remind the Department for Children, Schools and Families, that I was successfully detecting child sex traffickers, as they interacted with functions of the British state, considerably before Jim Gamble was assigned a role with the VGT or CEOP.

    I also have to again put it to the DCSF, the banning of schoolgirl skirts is a highly questionable response to the problems Great Britain is experiencing with male teachers and the sexual harassment of schoolgirls.

    In my opinion, such transgressive policies are not compliant with the duties attached to CEDAW or UNCRC ratification by a state party.

    Yours sincerely

    Gregory Carlin

    Irish Anti-Trafficking Coalition, Belfast, Northern Ireland, (02890 963164)

    (i) March 2, 2007 Jim Gamble, Chief Executive of the Child Exploitation and Online Protection Centre (CEOP), in response to the article ‘Why was the Hardcore Porn Industry invited to a Child Protection Conference?’ (ii) March 9, 2007 Clive Michel (CEOP)

  205. voltairespriest said,

    Hahaha – did you write it in green ink as well? 😆

  206. Gregory Carlin said,

    The CEOP letters revealed why Graham Conridge and people like him had to be referred via the USA,

    it didn’t matter that he was (i) notorious, and & (ii) a serial sex predator working in schools, it was not part of CEOP’s remit.

    “A PAEDOPHILE who had been banned from working in schools in Bedfordshire was given a job just across the border in Hertfordshire, despite warnings from his former employer.”

    The UK has the most bizarre teachers I have encountered, other than the Japanese, I’m at a loss to think of anything in the same category.

    They protect foxes though, it is just their kids who are exposed.

    Gregory

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