Now, more than ever, we must defend free speech.
Free speech is a fine principle and I’m all in favour of it … but it must be exercised responsibly. It’s not a license to gratuitously offend people. In particular, it should not be used to insult people’s sincerely-held beliefs.
How many times have you heard someone on the radio, TV, or quoted in the press, saying something like that? I’m pretty sure there’s been at least one Guardian editorial along those lines as well.

Offensive?
The more sophisticated of those using that sort of argument will usually also bring up the analogy with shouting “fire!” in a crowded theatre.
Well, I say that as soon as you come across someone placing provisos of that kind on their “support” for free speech, you know that you’re dealing with someone who doesn’t really support free speech at all.
Let’s be clear: the principle of free speech is indivisible, all-or-nothing. In particular, it must apply to those you disagree with (supporting free speech for people you agree with doesn’t amount to much does it?) and – in particular – it must include the right to give offence.
We may argue that there’s “a time and place” for certain potentially contentious statements, and that tactically/diplomatically, sometimes it’s better to keep schtum: but that’s nothing to do with the principle of free speech.
We may also conclude that the expression of certain views (for instance, racism) is incompatible with membership of a labour movement organisation – or, indeed, someone’s presence in your own home. Again, that’s besides the point: you’re saying “you can’t express those views here,” not “you can’t express them at all (and will face legal consequences if you do).”
Shouting “fire” in a theatre is, of course, a health and safety issue with nothing fundamentally to do with freedom of speech at all. Just as stopping fascists from holding meetings is pre-emptive action for the protection of the labour movement and minorities, not because we find their views “offensive” (an unfortunately widely-held misconception on sections of the left).
I do accept that the distinction between giving offence and incitement to violence (which is, rightly, illegal) is not always clear-cut. But in the vast majority of situations, common sense tells us which side of the line a particular offensive article or statement falls on.
I remember, when the hysteria about the Satanic Verses first blew up, following Khomenie’s murderous fatwa, a colleague argued that we should defend Rushdie because it was a good piece of literature. I disagreed: we should defend both Rushdie and his right to publish, even if our view was that the book was rubbish. That was, as I recall, one of the few arguments I won against that particular colleague.
Which brings us, inevitably, to the Innocence of Muslims. And as they say, “hard cases make bad law.”
I could spend a long time discussing this, but thankfully Nick Cohen in yesterday’s Observer has said just about everything I wanted to, especially this:
“Innocence of Muslims is one of the hardest cases for liberals I’ve come across. But even this tawdry piece of work raises problems for the proponents of censorship. The first is a problem with language. Mount a critique of Islamist religious fanaticism, and it is only a matter of time before you find that defenders of religious reaction have hijacked liberal language. You are an “orientalist”, they say, an “Islamophobe”, “neo-colonialist” or “neocon”. (The prefix “neo-” has become a synonym for “evil”. The reader need only see a “neo-” to know that no good will follow.)
“The joke of it is that defenders of censorship represent “orientalism” at its most patronising. They see the world’s Muslims as an undifferentiated and infantile mass. The smallest provocation – a cartoon in a Jutland newspaper, a trailer for a nasty but obscure film – is enough to turn them into a raging mass of bearded men who bellow curses as they fire their Kalashnikovs. They take no account of those in Libya, Egypt and Iran who want nothing to do with clerical violence. As seriously, they do not understand that ‘offences against Islam‘ are manufactured by extremists, who must keep their supporters in a state of violent rage or see their power wane.”
I urge you to read the piece in full (here), as well as this from Comrade Coates and a recent Canadian TV interview with Rushdie, here.
The issue of religious censorship and the demand from bigots for special protection and privilege, will not go away and will not be appeased by concessions: it must be constantly fought and no quarter can be given. Perhaps even more pernicious, is the creeping self-censorship and sheer cowardice of ‘liberal’ media people like Channel 4. That’s why, even at this perhaps ‘inopportune’ moment, these brave people and their campaign (below) must be supported by all socialists, democrats and, indeed, principled liberals:
Urgent Action: Islam – The Untold Story must not be cancelled
Dear friend
The Council of Ex-Muslims of Britain would like to make public its support for Tom Holland’s Channel 4 documentary ‘Islam: The Untold Story’. We are indignant to learn that due to threats made on Holland, Channel 4 has cancelled a repeat screening of the historical inquiry into the origins of Islam similar to the kind of inquiry that has been applied to other religions and histories in Britain for many years.
The threats and concerted attempt to stigmatise the documentary and its producers by attacking its credibility and even legitimacy as a field of inquiry is nothing less than an attempt to impose a blasphemy taboo by stealth and coercion against programming that scrutinises Islam.
Caving in to the coercive pressure of Islamists will have catastrophic effects on free inquiry and expression where it pertains to Islam. It would not only further silence academic, historical and theological scrutiny of Islam but would also have the chilling effect of exerting added pressure on Muslims and ex-Muslims who wish to dissent from and question Islam.
CEMB spokesperson Maryam Namazie says:
“Here’s my question to Channel 4: what about the threats on our lives for being apostates, ex-Muslims, atheists, freethinkers, secularists, 21st century human beings?
“What part of our thoughts, lives, and bodies do you recommend we cancel to appease the Islamists?
“If only there was such an ‘easy’ ‘solution’ for those who are languishing under Islam’s rules.
“You may accept censorship and cowardly silence in the face of Islamist threats and intimidation but we cannot afford to do so. And we never will.”
The CEMB urges you to view the documentary (also available on Youtube and Liveleak) and write to Channel 4 and Ofcom (contact information below) calling for a repeat screening.
We look forward to your support.
NOTES:
1. If you’d like to donate to our work, please send a cheque made payable to CEMB to BM Box 1919, London WC1N 3XX, UK or give via Worldpay or Paypal.
2. If you’d like to join a new coffee morning for ex-Muslim women, please email the CEMB at exmuslimcouncil@gmail.com.
3. See Maryam Namazie’s speech at the 5th anniversary celebration of the CEMB.
4. Join the active CEMB forum.
5. Addresses for Channel 4 and Ofcom:
Lord Burns, Channel 4 Chairperson Channel 4 Television Corporation 124 Horseferry Road London SW1P 2TX
Avi Grewal, Programme Coordinator, Arts & Religion agrewal@channel4.co.uk
Mark Raphael, Emma Cooper, Lina Prestwood, Anna Miralis, Commissioning Editors, Documentaries KHall@channel4.co.uk
Ed Richards, Chief Executive of Ofcom Riverside House 2a Southwark Bridge Road London SE1 9HA ofcomnews@ofcom.org.uk
6. For further information contact:
Maryam Namazie Spokesperson Council of Ex-Muslims of Britain BM Box 1919 London WC1N 3XX telephone: +44(0)7719166731 e-mail: ex-muslimcouncil@googlemail.com website: http://www.ex-muslim.org.uk
Andrew Coates said,
September 17, 2012 at 3:00 pm
Good post.
It’s important that all the democratic Marxist left writes on these lines.
Well drive the bloc of Russia Today, Counterfire, and Socialist Unity (which has now taken to attacking Pussy Riot) to the ground.
For Freedom! For Communism and Liberty!
http://tendancecoatesy.wordpress.com/2012/09/17/innocence-of-muslims-a-marxist-secularist-analysis/
Jim Denham said,
September 17, 2012 at 5:08 pm
Possibly the worst article yet on the present anti-Western rampages:
http://internationalsocialist.org.uk/index.php/blog/racism-and-riots-why-the-protesters-are-right/
On the other hand, he’s a young and probably ill-educated comrade so can perhaps be forgiven in a way that Rees (on Russian TV: http://tendancecoatesy.wordpress.com/2012/09/15/john-rees-prosecute-innocence-of-muslims-for-libel/), John Wight (at Rapists’ and antisemties’ Unity http://www.socialistunity.com/the-anger-sweeping-the-muslim-world/?utm_source=rss&utm_medium=rss&utm_campaign=the-anger-sweeping-the-muslim-world ) and the truly horrible Felicity Arbuthnot (in today’s Morning Star: http://www.morningstaronline.co.uk/news/content/view/full/123971) cannot.
Roger McCarthy (@RF_McCarthy) said,
September 18, 2012 at 2:29 pm
That first piece is just a classic example of ‘to a hammer everything looks like a nail’ syndrome.
If your whole political calculus is restricted to US Imperialism = Bad then you will see every political event as either a crime of US Imperialism or a justifiable act of resistance to it.
And all the others manifest the same delusion – but are indeed old enough and well-educated to know better.
But in a world where there is clearly no hope that mankind will come to its senses before capitalism drags us down into a new dark age I almost envy them their ability to construct and live in such a fantastic alternate reality.
Monsuer Jelly More Bounce to the Ounce said,
September 18, 2012 at 2:38 pm
“But in a world where there is clearly no hope that mankind will come to its senses before capitalism drags us down into a new dark age I almost envy them their ability to construct and live in such a fantastic alternate reality.”
In other werDs: They are all cunts
Mike Killingworth said,
September 17, 2012 at 5:22 pm
Hmm.
I’d say you can promote free speech or say “no platform for racists”. But probably not both.
Jim Denham said,
September 17, 2012 at 6:00 pm
I don’t say “no platform for racists,” Mike.
Rosie said,
September 17, 2012 at 7:23 pm
That “shouting fire in a crowded theatre” is misused all the time, as a warning not to say anything which might provoke highly touchy people. It’s as if the metaphor “inflammatory” is taken literally.
The Judge said,
September 17, 2012 at 10:53 pm
I presume, therefore, that you also agree that Azhar Ahmed should not have been convicted and face a likely term of imprisonment for something he put on Facebook? (See http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-leeds-19604735).
Or is your notion of ‘freedom of speech’ confined to ‘freedom to annoy Teh Muzzies’?
Rosie said,
September 18, 2012 at 6:13 am
Dunno if Jim agrees, but I’d agree that this policing of statements on Facebook, which to me are the digital equivalent of ranting in the pub, is creepily 1984ish. Your second paragraph is just crappy abuse.
Rosie said,
September 18, 2012 at 6:56 am
In fact I think this Facebook guy going to jail is outrageous.
Monsuer Jelly More Bounce to the Ounce said,
September 18, 2012 at 10:02 am
everyone with a facebyook page shouldbe sent to jail. and probably killed.
Monsuer Jelly More Bounce to the Ounce said,
September 18, 2012 at 2:42 pm
i’m going to have a chip butty for tea tomorrow and drown it in chardonnay
Roger McCarthy (@RF_McCarthy) said,
September 18, 2012 at 3:01 pm
Re Holland’s programme itself it is the feeblest attack on a religion imaginable and rendered almost unwatchably tedious by the fear-driven refusal of its contributors to say plainly what they clearly think: that the story of Muhammad and the rise of Islam were constructed long after the event to serve the interests of the Omayyad and Abbasid Caliphates
and should be taken not that much more seriously than tales of our own
King Arthur.
But rather than state that conclusion simply and clearly poor Holland wanders around the Middle East looking at camels and talks vaguely about it all just being a bit of a mystery.
But even this is a truth too far,
Monsuer Jelly More Bounce to the Ounce said,
September 18, 2012 at 3:06 pm
fuck. is it that bd Roger? haven’t seen it and was hoping for something werth defending. fuck it and fuck ‘free speach”. When i hear cunTs going on about fwee speach i automatically reach for my longbow. innit.
Roger McCarthy (@RF_McCarthy) said,
September 18, 2012 at 10:53 pm
It is worth defending precisely because it is so feeble and tries so desperately, desperately hard to avoid giving offense – and still they want to ban it.
Is it worth watching?
Well that depends on your tolerance of the incredibly annoying ‘my personal voyage of discovery’ format that all these big historical documentaries now take* – as you can probably tell mine is pretty low,
And if you’ve studied history at university level post-1970 or so and know how modern historians evaluate ancient and medieval sources there is no revelation here at all – propaganda produced a century or more after the event that is not backed up by a shred of contemporary documentary or archaeological evidence simply does not cut it any more.
But up until this point very few western scholars of early Islam have dared to express this publicly (and it doesn’t even really happen here as Holland isn’t actually such a scholar but a general purpose pop-historian and novelist – but the actual scholars have way more sense than to volunteer for such a suicide mission so it was presumably him or nobody).
Agree 100% that free speech is an obsession of bourgeois liberals.
But isn’t it still a vital weapon in the class war? (or would be if there still was a class war rather than the slow motion annihilation of one side by the other we’re actually doomed to spend the rest of our miserable lives impotently witnessing),
*(the Treasures of Ancient Rome series currently on BBC4 is even worse – absolutely stunning images but an utterly bollocks pseudo-revisionist commentary from a pretentious black-clad upper class teenage twat challenging straw men positions that no serious scholar actually holds)
Faster Pussycat Miaow! Miaow! Miaow! said,
September 19, 2012 at 2:02 am
@Roger
While we’re being all historical and that
Fuck, I fucking hate the fucking Romans.
Roger McCarthy (@RF_McCarthy) said,
September 21, 2012 at 5:22 pm
Me too – they really are the Nazis of the ancient world
But being an entire nation of psychotic shits doesn’t stop their art and architecture from being amazing.
Jim Denham said,
September 18, 2012 at 3:53 pm
I didn’t see Holland’s programme, but even the Graun (John Crace – one of their better writers) agrees with you, Roger:
“…towards the end of the programme Holland returned to Dr Nasr for reassurance that he hadn’t caused any lasting offence. Which he more or less got, as Nasr told him that what he had discovered was “quite interesting, so long as you don’t try to impose your view on the Muslim world”, as that would be tantamount to “western imperialism”. Holland crept out of Nasr’s office more or less insisting that the last thing he wanted was for any Muslim to take him seriously, so no harm was done. The gap between western liberalism and Islamic liberalism suddenly looked frighteningly large.”
http://www.guardian.co.uk/tv-and-radio/2012/aug/28/the-untold-story-islam-accused
SteveH said,
September 18, 2012 at 4:35 pm
Nick Cohen is a out and out neo con because he is an apologist for imperialist power and all its horrific abuses. It has nothing to do with religious criticism at all. He follows the Roger Mccarthy and Shiraz line of US imperialism = good.
On shouting fire being an health and safety issue, you could make the same argument about this film. I understand some people have died as a result.
If freedom of speech is all or nothing, as you claim, then incitement to hatred is curbing freedom of speech. You can pretend that it somehow falls outside the remit, you can even develop fancy little bits of logic to justify your claim but in reality it is bullshit. Pure freedom does not exist, there are limits to it all the time.
In reality you want a specific version of freedom of speech that nicely fits into your world view. There is nothing wrong with that and I may well agree with your version but at least have the honesty to say that concepts such as freedom are a result of history, conflict and negotiation and are not fixed.
Roger McCarthy (@RF_McCarthy) said,
September 18, 2012 at 11:57 pm
Oh fuck off.
As I say above in answer to Comrade Jelly I take a completely Leninist line on freedom of speech – it is nothing more than a weapon (albeit one which we are now no longer capable of wielding).
And as for US imperialism I am not even sure it exists any more – capitalism has really outgrown that whole stage of its existence and created a truly global form of super-exploitation to which nation-states are becoming increasingly irrelevant.
But that has implications for the future literally too dreadful to fully comprehend – so I don’t really blame you for refusing to leave your warm ideological cocoon where nothing has fundamentally changed since 1960 or so.
Mike Killingworth said,
September 19, 2012 at 7:28 am
It may be worth pausing to consider why socialism has been such a bust. One possible reason is that it confused the necessity of the exercise of power by a relatively small ruling class with the instance of that called capitalism (or the domination of the bourgeoisie, if you prefer). The ethical objection is to the former – the general case. Socialism was a proposal to deal with the latter. The concept of the “leadership of the Party” was an admission that the masses cannot rule themselves. In other words, ethics and politics don’t mix.
Jim Denham said,
September 18, 2012 at 4:42 pm
Jesus!: the hard-of-thinking SteveH has crawled back. Has he nothing better to do with his time?
“On shouting fire being an health and safety issue, you could make the same argument about this film. I understand some people have died as a result.”
You just don’t get it do you, Steve? Shouting “fire” when there is none is one thing. Threatening to start a fire if people say things you don’t like is quite a different matter. Even David Edgar (usually soft as shit on these questions) understands this:
http://www.guardian.co.uk/commentisfree/libertycentral/2012/apr/15/globe-theatre-invitation-protest-israel-habima
OF COURSE “…concepts such as freedom are a result of history, conflict and negotiation and are not fixed”: such universal rights come out of the Enlightenment, as supported by Marx and all civilised thinkers since. Only relativist morons and hypocrites disagree (and most of them choose not to live under non-Enlightenment regimes).
I shall not bother to reply to the rest of your comment because it’s self-evident ignorant shite. Also, Modernity keeps saying I shouldn’t engage with antisemites.
But what we’re talking about here is not the “hecker’s veto,” but the “arsonist’s veto.”
But you’d be too thick to understand that.
SteveH said,
September 18, 2012 at 5:27 pm
Given the history of the Danish cartoon I think you could argue that this was a form of shouting fire and an incitement. That doesn’t mean I would have banned the film incidenatlly, I just think you need to be more honest about freedom of speech. It is never all or nothing.
The very concept of freedom didn’t come fully formed. Freedom of speech develops historically, is part of the negotiations in society. For this reason it always but always has its limits, any freedom that claims to be pure freedom is pure idealism. Marx developed historcial materialism in opposition to such enlightenment idealism.
Now Zionists have sought to slur all those anti Zionsist as racists, akin to Hitler and have sought to move the centre ground way over to the oppressors side. I remain firm in the belief that the ‘Jewish’ state has no place in a civilsed world.
Jim Denham said,
September 18, 2012 at 5:40 pm
“Marx developed historcial materialism in opposition to such enlightenment idealism”…
Eh, no.
Marx was a product of the Enlightement and his ideas expand and develop it: they most certainly do not negate it.
This is a-b-c stuff for those who’ve taken the trouble to actually read Marx.
Start with the Communist Manifesto.
P.S: This, http://www.marxists.org/reference/archive/smith-cyril/works/articles/interim.htm is quite a good starting point for a discussion of Marx and the Enlightenment.
P.P.S: We seem to have this same argument every couple of years, with ignorant peaple who are determined (against all the evidence and, indeed, a simple understanding of history) to try to argue that Marx was somehow opposed to Enlightenment values.
P.P.P.S: Finally, SteveH: what has “Zionism” got to do with this debate? How come you’ve even brought “Zionism” into it? Unless you’re obsessed, of course.
SteveH said,
September 18, 2012 at 6:19 pm
I brought Zionism into this because you claimed I was anti Semitic, this is based on my opinions of Israel.
It isn’t a case of being opposed to ‘enlightenment’ values or not, Marx had a fundamentally different philosophical outlook to the ‘enlightenment’ thinkers, as they also had with each other to a certain extent. The ‘enlightenment’ isn’t this consistent body of work you claim it is. Being the product of the ‘enlightenment’ doesn’t make you an exponent of ‘enlightenment’ values any more than being a product of capitalist society makes you a capitalist.
I think historical materialism goes beyond developing and expanding enlightenment ideas,
Jim Denham said,
September 18, 2012 at 6:29 pm
Gibberish. Ignorant gibberish at that.
Steve, even after the Tory cuts, there are adult education evening classes you can go on in order to obtain a minimal education.
SteveH said,
September 18, 2012 at 8:18 pm
Gibberish or not, you still cannot claim that freedom of speech is all or nothing, this is cretinism. It lacks honesty, and this sort of dishonesty usually belies an agenda of some sort or another.
Jim Denham said,
September 18, 2012 at 10:55 pm
“…,this is cretinism. It lacks honesty”:
OK Steve. tell us when, in your opinion, freedom of speech should NOT be allowed.
SteveH said,
September 19, 2012 at 4:46 pm
What a lame question!
I personally hold very liberal ideas about freedom of speech and I would probaly even allow incitement to racial hatred. (though being white that is easy for me to say). I would probably also allow holocaust denial but fully understand why Austria would want to outlaw it. So it is a given that I would not ban this shit film. However, freedom of speech is not the product of my personal preferences but a long process of negotiation, of historical reality, balance of power, political calculation, competing individual wills etc etc etc.
But nowhere is freedom of speech without limits, and this is no surprise for the reasons given above.
Jim Denham said,
September 19, 2012 at 4:59 pm
So try answering the “lame question” Steve: if freedom of speech is, in your view “not without limits” (not the same thing as acknowledging that the principle arises from a certain historical and social context : ie the Enlightenment. That’s just a statement of the bleedin’ obvious), then what exactly should those limits be?
SteveH said,
September 19, 2012 at 5:23 pm
Answering lame questions is by their nature difficult.
I personally think society should frown upon anyone who goes up to a woman and abuses her in public, I think I would step into that situation. I actually did do something like that when some youths, holding beer cans, were abusing a Muslim wearing a skull cap (if that is the correct term). This happened near the bus station in Rotherham. I told the lads to stop being jerks and leave the guy alone. So maybe my limit is when speech is used to bully and harrass individuals.
I also think I should be at least put on a warning if I call my manager at work at total cunt (even if he is).
However because these limits are the product of an entire history of conflict, negotiations etc etc etc etc one man cannot possibly work it all out himself and shouldn’t be expected to. I like a democratic approach where decisions are made by consensus and not made by those who consider themselves the smart arses.
Jim Denham said,
September 19, 2012 at 5:58 pm
No, Steve: answering “lame questions” should be easy. But you seem to find coming up with a relevant, coherent answer to *any” question a bit difficult.
Both the examples you give seem to involve some degree of physical threat – something that I’ve already made clear (see main post) is a seperate issue to that of free speech. There are laws against harassment (and incitement) that I fully support.
Free speech is about the freedom to express an opinion, no matter how unpopular and/or “offensive.”
And as I’ve also made clear, upholding the principle of free speech does *not* mean that the left should just sit back passively when confronted by vile opinions being expressed. Just that we’re against state bans.
Now try dealing with the real issue, rather than red herrings, Steve. Which opinions do you think should be illegal?
SteveH said,
September 19, 2012 at 6:43 pm
The thing is your reducing freedom of speech to simply opinions is a limiting factor itself, this was the point I made earlier. Just because you say freedom of speech covers XY and Z but excludes ABC in no way means everyone sees it like this. Freedom of speech is arrived at by consenus but where balance of power decides whose consensus is sought.
My point would be that limits to freedom of speech should be based on the widest possible consensus, i.e. in the most demoractic way.
It could be your opinion that Muslims do not belong in this country, if you approach a Muslim in the street and confront him directly in an agressive manner with this opinion then I would be against this but if you gave that view on the net, throwing it out into the general community then I would not want any laws against that. The thing is some people would want laws against that and the democratic way is to hear out all opinions because people experience life in different ways. Now these are complications even within a nation state, looking at the internationalist viewpoint the application of a universal fixed set of commandments on freedom of speech is problematic. Again let democratic consensus decide. I am of the firm belief that 100 people making a decision will mean better outcomes than 1 smart arse deciding what he/she thinks is correct.
The battle for democracy is the battle for freedom of speech.
Jim Denham said,
September 19, 2012 at 7:37 pm
“My point would be that limits to freedom of speech should be based on the widest possible consensus, i.e. in the most demoractic way.
“It could be your opinion that Muslims do not belong in this country, if you approach a Muslim in the street and confront him directly in an agressive manner with this opinion then I would be against this but if you gave that view on the net, throwing it out into the general community then I would not want any laws against that.”
*********************
Steve: you seem now to have retreated into sheer incoherence, but as far as I can make out, you possibly agree with me (“if you approach a Muslim in the street and confront him directly in an agressive manner with this opinion then I would be against this but if you gave that view on the net, throwing it out into the general community then I would not want any laws against that”).
There seems to be a small glimmer of hope for you (your conclusion: “The battle for democracy is the battle for freedom of speech,” which could equally well be expressed the other way round).
P.S: “Just because you say freedom of speech covers XY and Z but excludes ABC in no way means everyone sees it like this”: but *I* do, Steve. And I only speak for myself and other sane and civilised people like Nick Cohen, on this matter.
P.P.S: You still haven’t answered my question: what opinions do you wish to have outlawed?
Mike Killingworth said,
September 20, 2012 at 7:32 am
[17] to [24] Steve making a weak case graciously, Jim a strong case brutally. Perhaps it is inevitable that Jim’s question cannot be answered: since what any of us would wish “outlawed” (doesn’t that itself sound rather romantic?) is substantially emotive, no purely rational algorithm is going to fit.
Faster Pussycat Miaow! Miaow! Miaow! said,
September 20, 2012 at 7:57 am
the battle for democracy is the battle for freedom of speech
Typical half-witted liberal arsewash. The battle for democracy is the battle to supercede the current mode of production. Everything else is nothing but pissing on the inferno.
(syntax corrected)
Roger McCarthy (@RF_McCarthy) said,
September 21, 2012 at 5:28 pm
Absolutely – it used to be Marxism 101 that democracy was only fully possible under socialism.
Mike Killingworth said,
September 21, 2012 at 6:09 pm
Perhaps – but it didn’t happen under “actually existing socialism”.
And that’s before we get to the paradox that people cannot be compelled to practise active citizenship, yet if they don’t they will lose out and society will be inegalitarian at least to that extent.