Livingstone’s politically criminal communalist opportunism
“But mobilising for the physical defence of the Bengali community, an obligation for all socialists, is not the same as running a communal election campaign to get George Galloway re-elected to Parliament. It is different, and SWP Respect footsoldiers could learn some useful lessons from the best of the 1930s anti-fascists. The latter understood the distinction between mobilising alongside Jewish organisations and individuals for physical defence against the fascists, and throwing their political lot in with the leaders of the synagogues and with communal prejudices” – John Bloxam, Workers Liberty, 2007.
Communalism – the idea that people should relate to each other primarily on the basis of their community or religious identities, is a poison that the British labour movement has taken years to purge. It was once very strong, especially in Liverpool and Glasgow. The political bandit and friend of dictators everywhere, George Galloway, did his best to revive this backward tradition with his vanity-project ‘Respect’, now thankfully defunct.
But as the sun sets on Galloway and ’Respect’, that other irrepressible opportunist and irresponsible self-promoter (not to mention, tax-dodger and grade-’A’ hypocrite), Ken Livingstone, attempts to revive communalism in his bid to become Mayor of London once again. Yesterday’s Daily Telegraph (yes, I know: a Tory rag. But no-one, including Livingstone, has questioned the accuracy of this), reports the following:
Ken Livingstone has promised to turn London into a “beacon” for the words of the Prophet Mohammed in a sermon at one of the capital’s most controversial mosques.
Mr Livingstone, Labour’s candidate for mayor of London, pledged to “educate the mass of Londoners” in Islam, saying: “That will help to cement our city as a beacon that demonstrates the meaning of the words of the Prophet.” Mr Livingstone described Mohammed’s words in his last sermon as “an agenda for all humanity.”
He praised the Prophet’s last sermon, telling his audience: “I want to spend the next four years making sure that every non-Muslim in London knows and understands [its] words and message.” He also promised to “make your life a bit easier financially.”
Mr Livingstone was speaking at last Friday’s Jummah prayer at the North London Central Mosque, also known as Finsbury Park Mosque, formerly controlled by the terrorist recruiter Abu Hamza.
Hamza was removed in 2003 but the mosque is now controlled by an Islamist organisation, the Muslim Association of Britain, which has been linked to the banned terror group, Hamas. A man who has acted as spokesman for the current leadership, Azzam Tamimi, is on record as supporting suicide bombings. One of the mosque’s current directors, Mohammed Sawalha, is described by the BBC as a former senior figure in Hamas who “is said to have masterminded much of Hamas’s political and military strategy” from his post in London.
In 2009 Mr Sawalha also signed the Istanbul Declaration which calls for attacks against the allies of Israel, which include the UK. The British Government interpreted it as calling for attacks on British troops.
In 2010, the Labour MP Khalid Mahmood, a Muslim moderate, resigned from the mosque’s board of trustees and reported it to the Charity Commission, accusing the mosque of forging his signature on key legal documents.
Mr Livingstone has been dogged by allegations of links to Islamic fundamentalism. In 2010, in the London borough of Tower Hamlets, he campaigned against his own party’s candidate to back a controversial independent politician, Lutfur Rahman, sacked by Labour for his links to a Muslim extremist group, the Islamic Forum of Europe (IFE).
During his mayoralty, Mr Livingstone’s London Development Agency channelled hundreds of thousands of pounds to the East London Mosque in Tower Hamlets, controlled by the IFE, even though senior LDA managers strongly opposed the grant. In return, IFE activists campaigned strongly for him at the 2008 mayoral elections, boasting that they “got out the vote” for Mr Livingstone and achieving dramatic swings to him in their east London heartland.
Mr Livingstone also gave thousands of pounds of public money to the Muslim Welfare House, a charity closely associated with the Finsbury Park Mosque, which signed an open letter backing his re-election campaign in 2008.
In his last sermon, delivered in the valley of Mount Arafat, near Mecca in 632 AD, the Prophet Mohammed attacked discrimination, saying that “a white has no superiority over a black nor a black has any superiority over white, except by piety and good action.” However, he also said that men had a right to ensure their wives “do not make friends with anyone of whom you do not approve.”
(NB: the above is the longer, online, version of the story that appeared in yesterday’s print edition of the Telegraph).
Let’s be clear about this: if what Livingstone was arguing for was tolerance and a “live-and-let-live” attitude towards mainstream Muslim believers, or indeed offering solidarity against prejudice and demonisation, then there would be no objections from me. Indeed, given the recent outrages in France, it would be a timely and welcome intervention. But that is most definitely not Livingstone’s message: he’s promising Muslim leaders that he’ll actively promote their religion, as well as (in what can only be understood as a latter-day version of Tammany Hall-style bribery) to “make your life a bit easier financially.”
Have a look at the Youtube clip (above) of his speech and I think you’ll agree that, like Galloway before him, Livingstone is sending out a clear (and entirely cynical) message that he’s about to convert.
I’ll leave aside, for now, the decidedly dodgy nature of the present leadership of North London Central Mosque and Mr Azzam Tamimi; I’ll also leave aside Livingstone’s record of sucking up to Islamist bigots. What I’m concerned about is Livingstone’s irresponsible, opportunist and entirely self-serving attempt to revive communalist politics – a betrayal of all those who fight for working class unity and – in particular – a betrayal of progressives, democrats, women and gays within the Muslim “community.”
This sordid example of political corruption and vote-grubbing comes especially badly from an operator whose concern for the sensibilities of ethno-religious minorities is, shall we say, selective…
Unfortunately, this loathsome creature is the Labour candidate for mayor, so we have to vote for him, on an elemental class basis. But all the more reason for socialists to actively involve themselves in the Labour Party: to ensure that we don’t have to vote for anti-working class scum like Livingstone.
skidmarx said,
March 20, 2012 at 5:09 pm
Presumably, “politically criminal” means not criminal at all, except in your mind, just as politicallly antisemitic”…
When Bob Pitt writes:
If there’s one blog that can outdo even Gilligan’s in dishonest polemic against Livingstone, it is Harry’s Place,
he might want to check his numbers.
That’s the Bob Pitt who recently wrote of one of your frequent visitors:
Other commentators concur with the view that the punishment imposed on Conway was a breach of his right to free speech (“it seems alarming that someone can receive such a substantial sentence for criticising an idea”). They might ask themselves whether they would take this view if Conway had displayed posters with the slogan “Jews are the most hateful of them all” accompanied by pictures of mutilated bodies.
skidmarx said,
March 20, 2012 at 5:17 pm
Azzam Tamimi, is on record as supporting suicide bombings.
The link is to Daniel Pipes’ website:
In addition, Pipes sparked a controversy when he was invited to speak at the University of Toronto in March 2005. A letter from professors, staff and students asserted that Pipes had a “long record of xenophobic, racist and sexist speech that goes back to 1990.”
What is about racists you like so much, Jimbo, because I wouldn’t have thought you’d like people to think that you’re one yourself?
Also from Pipes’ Wikipedia page,this could be about you, if you were worthy of the attention:
Christopher Hitchens, a fellow supporter of the Iraq War and critic of political Islam, has also criticized Pipes, arguing that Pipes pursues an intolerant agenda, “confuses scholarship with propaganda”, and “pursues petty vendettas with scant regard for objectivity.”
Jim Denham said,
March 20, 2012 at 5:35 pm
Skidiot:
1/ “Politically criminal” means criminal in terms of working class politics, not bourgeois legality – of course, twerp!
2/ I don’t care about Pipes (the Telegraph’s link, not mine): all I’m interested in is, does Tamimi support suicide bombing, or not?
The Wikipedia entry (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Azzam_Tamimi) for Tamimi states:
“During a contentious interview on the November 2004 BBC program Hardtalk, Tamimi said that sacrificing his life for justice for Palestine would be “a noble cause. It is the straight way to pleasing my God and I would do it if I had the opportunity”.[13] On August 21, 2006, London’s Daily Mail published a report on a Tamimi speech with the following lead sentence: “A British-based Muslim radical appeared to back suicide bombing yesterday when he claimed that dying for your beliefs was ‘just’.” The article quotes Tamimi as saying that “fighting those who invade Muslims is a just cause.”[5] In The Guardian, Tamimi responded to the Daily Mail report, stating that his speech was about sacrificing oneself for justice, and that “martyrdom is dying for justice and peace .. not blowing oneself up killing innocent people”. He added in the Guardian piece, “the martyrdom that I said was the greatest form of sacrifice was the one that is incurred by a person who dares speak the truth in the presence of a tyrant.”[14]
“Tamimi appeared at pro-Palestinian event at Queen Mary, University of London on 28 February 2012. Speaking alongside Baroness Tonge, he seemingly endorsed suicide bombing with the comment, “I’d be a martyr for my country, of course,” and adding, “if you’re not prepared to die for your country then you are not a patriot.” [15]”
The Huffington Post (http://www.huffingtonpost.co.uk/2012/02/24/palestinian-academic-azzam-tamimi-supporter-of-israel-bombings-provokes-outrage-_n_1298692.html) stated this:
“A Palestinian academic who has publicly backed suicide bombings in Israel has provoked student outrage ahead of a speech at a London university.
“Azzam Tamimi, who is also a supporter of extremist group Hamas, is to deliver a speech at Queen Mary University (QMU) at an event hosted by the university’s Palestine Solidarity Society on 28 February.
“In 2004 he told the BBC: “You see, sacrificing myself for Palestine is a noble cause. It is the straight way to pleasing my God and I would do it if I had the opportunity.”
“Student campaign group Student Rights have blasted the university’s decision to host the talk, saying it was “laughable”.
“”Not only will there be no balance to [Tamimi's] hate filled views, but that the panel he will speak alongside have all declared outspoken opposition to Israel in the past.”
“”We have frequently called for panels at events like this to be balanced yet student societies continue to load their panels to suit their own opinions,” the group added.
“Tamimi is to speak alongside Baroness Tonge and Professor Haim Bresheeth, an Israeli academic. Both have previously criticised Israel.
“But QMU continues to stick by its decision to let the event go ahead, citing freedom of speech as a defence.
“”Freedom of expression and the sharing of ideas and beliefs are at the heart of Queen Mary’s ethos and we have a very clear policy and mechanisms to support this.”
“Groups from the students’ union have to submit an application if they wish to invite external speakers to the university’s campus.
“”Where no previous record of illegal activity is identified, and the College believes it is possible to ensure that its campus remains a place of safety for its students, staff and visitors, an event will proceed with conditions attached to it that the College believes are appropriate.”
“Student Rights has posted a statement from Dominic Bell, the university’s vice president of student activities, which says the union “highlighted the lack of balance on the panel of speakers”.
“”However, the Students’ Union does not have a ‘no platform’ policy and both the Principal and the Union believe in freedom of speech. We don’t have the right to block the event unless it’s for health and safety reasons.”
“Tamimi has previously spoken at the University of Cambridge, as well delivering a speech to Birmingham students, despite widespread opposition.
“The university’s statement comes days after Jewish students at the London School of Economics were involved in a violent clash with Palestinian protestors.
“Members of the LSE’s Palestine society were attacked after they stopped students from entering a university building and asked for “papers”.”
SteveH said,
March 20, 2012 at 5:35 pm
Well,
at least Shiraz have now dropped the support Livingstone bit from their articles and have now come out full on in favour of Boris. I am sure what they really want is some New Labourite, friend of Israel to take on Boris but that won’t obviously happen this election.
Jim Denham said,
March 20, 2012 at 5:44 pm
MrH: “at least Shiraz have now dropped the support Livingstone bit from their articles…”
The article in question: “so we have to vote for him [Livingstone], on an elemental class basis.”
MrH: basic literacy courses are still available at most Adult Education centres.
skidmarx said,
March 20, 2012 at 6:07 pm
I don’t care about Pipes
Just as you weren’t bothered about Benny Morris or Martin Amis. Does racism not concern you?
Jim Denham said,
March 20, 2012 at 6:26 pm
Skidiot: do you actually read what I write?
My anti-racist record stands and I’m not about to justify myself to the likes of you.
I care deeply about racism, but also about facts, truth and making an attempt to understand context. If I didn’t do that I’d have refused to support Palestinian claims for national rights many years ago. As it is, I continue to support them.
In my opinion, none of the people you mention are racists, but all have made ill-judged comments that laid them open to (honest) misunderstanding and (dishonest) misrepresentation.
None are in the same league as (say) Gilad Atzmon or Baroness Jenny Tonge.
modernity's ghost said,
March 20, 2012 at 7:34 pm
“My anti-racist record stands and I’m not about to justify myself to the likes of you.”
Jim, but you do.
That’s why you allow Skidmarx to fuck up each thread with his barely literate nonsense. Jim, you like having Skidmarx as a foil and in turn you wonder why real quality discussions suffers as a consequence?
The two go hand in hand.
You pander to Skidmarx because of his past with Trotskyism, you naively believed he can be swayed with arguments.
The evidence points otherwise.
But please keep it up, if it makes you feel happy, you’ll shout at him and he’ll ignore you, for years
And years.
SteveH said,
March 20, 2012 at 7:47 pm
Jim,
I was actually referring to the title. The previous article was titled: “Vote Livingstone: tax-dodger, hypocrite and scumbag” and this just says “Livingstone’s politically criminal communalist opportunism”
Now I actually skim read the article so didn’t spot the attempt to absolve yourself of extreme sectarianism. The attempt won’t wash I am afraid. On an elemental class basis you should be throwing your weight behind Livingstone, seen as he won the candidacy. Instead all we get is a barrage of abuse. Based on the trend it can’t be long before you just say: Fuck Livingstone, Vote Boris.
Though in actual fact this is what you are doing anyway.
Jim Denham said,
March 20, 2012 at 11:49 pm
SteveH: learn to read: the article does *not* say “vote Boris”; it *does* say “so we have to vote for him [Livingstone], on an elemental class basis.”
Is English your first language, MrH?
Jim Denham said,
March 21, 2012 at 12:20 am
Mod says: “You pander to Skidmarx because of his past with Trotskyism, you naively believed he can be swayed with arguments”: no,I don’t think that, Mod. I think Skidiot is a hopeless antisemite. But s/he’s all too typical of the Stalinist/SWP antisemitic “left” and, therefore, must be argued with and denounced. Not because we expect to re-educate Skidiot, but because some good people may be reading what we write, and drawing lessons.
If we fail to do that, and do not win over their more thoughtful people (as we in the AWL have done), then the actually existing “left” is lost. I refuse to simply allow that to happen, and if having to publicly correct and rebuke the likes of Skidiot is the price of educating the actually existing “left” then it’s a price worth paying.
modernity's ghost said,
March 21, 2012 at 8:04 am
“Mod says: “You pander to Skidmarx because of his past with Trotskyism, you naively believed he can be swayed with arguments”: no,I don’t think that,”
Jim, you said as much before.
“because some good people may be reading what we write, and drawing lessons.”
There is NO evidence of that.
Please point to 3 instances where someone has said “Ahh, yes, I was a bigot but reading you and Skidmarx’s exchanges, made me change”.
They haven’t and won’t. Such an idea is wishful thinking.
Most people, most non-racists, tire of these bitter, pointless exchanges between you and Skidmarx.
He insults you and you do the same to him. There is no intellectual crushing of his racism there, just an acceptance that he should take part in a discussion. That’s what comes through.
The price you are paying is saying, by inference, that you consider him to be a valid interlocutor.
That’s what comes over, not the other sentiment.
Jimmy said,
March 21, 2012 at 1:59 am
Maybe Ken has given up on the infidel working class turning out for him and has gone for johnie Muslim as a last resort. One more term, One more term. Get out mugs, any mugs and vote for me. Boris the Bold is bad for London.
Anon said,
March 21, 2012 at 9:10 am
Gilligan’s article misrepresents what Livingstone said at the North London Central Mosque.
Livingstone didn’t say he would make London a beacon for Islam, but rather a beacon for the principles outlined in the Prophet’s final sermon, which argued against racial discrimination and stated that God had intended human beings to live in different communities so that they could get to know each other and live together in a spirit of mutual respect and tolerance despite their differences.
That section of Ken’s speech was a defence of diversity and multiculturalism, but using an Islamic reference as he was speaking to an audience of Muslims.
The promise to “make your life a bit easier financially” doesn’t appear in the edited clip of the speech that Gilligan posted. It is evidently taken from an earlier section where Livingstone was putting forward his proposals for transport, housing etc. He would have been referring to his policies of cutting tube fares, restoring the EMA etc. Gilligan misuses the quote to imply that Livingstone is promised specific financial assistance to the Muslim community.
Gilligan has a long history of this sort of thing. He is a man devoid of journalistic integrity or elementary honesty. His career should have been finished after his reputation was shredded in the Hutton inquiry and he was forced to resign from the BBC. But Boris Johnson stepped in and saved him by offering him a job at the Spectator. Since then Gilligan has been repaying that debt by writing endless dishonest attacks on Livingstone.
The man is beneath contempt, and no self-respecting left-wing blog would give his hatchet jobs any credence at all.
Jim Denham said,
March 21, 2012 at 10:03 am
“Gilligan’s article misrepresents what Livingstone said at the North London Central Mosque”:
Anon, I am well aware of who Gilligan is, and what the Telegraph is. Hence the health warning in the piece I posted. As to whether the Gilligan report is factually accurate: well. I’ve helpfully provided a Youtube video so you can check. It *does* include the (at best, ambiguous) words “as well as what I can do make your life a bit easier financially.” The exact quote about making London a “beacon” seems to be his promise to “educate the mass of Londoners” and to “help to cement our city as a beacon of understanding of the meaning of the words of the Prophet, peace be upon Him.”
But all readers can watch and listen for themselves, then judge.
I thought, for a moment, that we were in agreement on something, when you state: “The man is beneath contempt”. But then I realised you *weren’t* referring to Livingstone.
sackcloth and ashes said,
March 21, 2012 at 11:26 am
‘Does racism not concern you?’
It certainly concerns me, particularly when it comes to brownshirt, genocide-denying scum like you.
blerehgc ocmaomnetareyr said,
March 21, 2012 at 5:29 pm
Pro Tory fuckwit. sHuD b buRNT to derTH.
Anon said,
March 21, 2012 at 11:30 am
You’re right about the making your lives easier financially bit. I missed that. Livingstone does tend to mumble. But my point remains valid, I think.
The clip starts after Livingstone has outlined his policies for improving Londoners’ lives materially, finishing with “building homes for people to live in”. The previous section of the speech has been edited out, but he would also have presented his policies for transport etc as well. Livingstone then adds “those are things you would expect the mayor to do”. He goes on to argue that it is also the job of the mayor to use his position as a platform to promote diversity and multiculturalism, and oppose hostility towards the Muslim community incited by the likes of the Mail and Telegraph.
At the end of that section he says (more or less – as I say, he mumbles) “so as well as things that I can do to improve make your lives a bit easier financially” he can educate Londoners into the lies the right-wing press tell about Islam and make London a beacon for multiculturalism.
So it’s obvious that the improving lives financially bit refers to the earlier section of the speech dealing with tube fares, EMA etc. He certainly makes no specific commitment to finance the Muslim community in the clip that Gilligan has posted. Gilligan is misrepresenting what he says.
sackcloth and ashes said,
March 21, 2012 at 1:35 pm
Anyone who doesn’t believe that Livingstone is indulging in communalist politics needs to explain away this:
http://www.thejc.com/news/uk-news/65425/ken-livingstone-jews-wont-vote-labour-because-they-are-rich
He’s not fit to be a Labour candidate for mayor. He should defect to RESPECT (if the party still exists), or the Swankers.
Voters in the French Presidential elections of 2002 ended up having to choose between Chirac and Le Pen, and it must have been agonising for good Socialists to cast a vote for the former rather than Jospin. But in the absence of a proper democratic leftist candidate Londoners would be better off voting for the toff.
representingthemambo said,
March 21, 2012 at 4:24 pm
I was with you until “Londoners would be better off voting for the toff.”
Boris Johnson? Seriously?
sackcloth and ashes said,
March 21, 2012 at 4:30 pm
To be quite frank, yes. Livingstone’s brand of politics is poisonous, and is guaranteed to fuel bigotry and inter-communal strife rather than counter it.
It’s a shit choice, I know, and if Labour had anyone other than Livingstone as a candidate it wouldn’t have to be made.
blerehgc ocmaomnetareyr said,
March 21, 2012 at 5:27 pm
What a surprise – harry’s place commenter scum in vote for the bullingdon club cunt shocker. Tory vermin shows true colours.
blerehgc ocmaomnetareyr said,
March 21, 2012 at 5:29 pm
Tory Scum. Gas.
sackcloth and ashes said,
March 21, 2012 at 6:51 pm
I’ve got no change, Will. Sorry.
Andrew Coates said,
March 21, 2012 at 2:47 pm
Given what is happening in France now Livingstone is well-advised to shut up about Muslims.
France has a democratic left candidate of the Front de gauche who attracts many of North African background and who is a militant secularist.
Perosnally I am too upset about what’s happened in Toulouse to comment further,
blerehgc ocmaomnetareyr said,
March 21, 2012 at 5:31 pm
‘I don’t want to vote for him honest – Dr Livingstone leaves me no choice’ Fuck off you tory loving streak of human sewage.
blerehgc ocmaomnetareyr said,
March 21, 2012 at 5:32 pm
sackcloth and ashes supports the privatisation of the NHS – he has mates in negative equity who are gonna clear up. Class enemy to be liquidated. Gulag the fucker.
Monsuer Jelly est Formidable said,
March 22, 2012 at 1:37 am
could not agree moRE with sentiments expressed by BlergHh CvoomentaytoR
sackcloth and ashes said,
March 22, 2012 at 3:17 pm
Of course not. You’re both sockpuppets for the same twisted clown.
Get a life, Will.
Jim Denham said,
March 21, 2012 at 5:55 pm
Just when you thought Livingstone couldn’t sink any lower…
http://www.thejc.com/news/uk-news/65426/the-letter-ed-miliband-jewish-labour-supporters
modernity's ghost said,
March 21, 2012 at 7:18 pm
Jim,
Be good for people to read the letter, competely.
Three thoughts strike me immediately:
1) Ken “…does not accept Jews as an ethnicity and a people…”
2) Livingstone’s use of language “Ken used the words Zionist, Jewish and Israeli, interchangeably, as if they meant the same, and did so in a pejorative manner.”
3) his utterly stupid notion about voting patterns “as the Jewish community is rich, we simply wouldn’t vote for him.”
sackcloth and ashes said,
March 21, 2012 at 6:53 pm
‘sackcloth and ashes supports the privatisation of the NHS – he has mates in negative equity who are gonna clear up. Class enemy to be liquidated. Gulag the fucker’.
You need a check-up from the neck-up, mate.
Anon said,
March 21, 2012 at 8:02 pm
Andrew Coates: “Given what is happening in France now Livingstone is well-advised to shut up about Muslims.”
Says it all really, doesn’t it?
Let’s imagine that Boris Johnson gives a friendly speech at a meeting of London’s Jewish community and this is followed by an act of Israeli state terrorism resulting in the deaths of innocent Palestinians. Would Jim Denham accept a comment reading:
“Given what is happening in Gaza now Boris Johnson is well-advised to shut up about Jews.”
Mick Woods said,
March 21, 2012 at 10:50 pm
Sean Matgamna and many in the AWL have had a bit of a thing about Ken since the late nineties.
Jim Denham said,
March 22, 2012 at 12:28 am
Anon:
1/ You seem to be attributing a comment to me, that I didn’t make.
2/ Andrew Coates can speak for himself, but I’d guess that his point was that given the shocking revelations from France, all politicians would be well advised to avoid saying anything that might inflame feelings.
3/ As for your analogy, a better comparison would be a British politician praising Israeli policies immediately prior to “an act of Israeli state terrorism (against) Palestinians”: in such a situation I might well suggest that the politician would be well advised to “shut up” not about Jews but about Israel.
s4r4hbrown said,
March 22, 2012 at 6:26 am
I was a bit surprised by Andrew’s comment too, but perhaps it just came out oddly. Jim Denham’s suggestion would be a better parallel if Andrew had said ‘Islamists’. I think it is still true that the French campaign seems dominated by anti-immigrant, and anti-Muslim rhetoric, in a way which doesn’t happen here, outside the margins, anything like so much,
What strikes me most about what the letter reveals about KL, is his apparent quite extraordinary ineptitude. You’d think, being a politician, he’d be able to cover up his ‘issues’ a bit more agiley rather than (apparently) wander into a really obvious antisemitic trope.
Mick Woods said,
March 22, 2012 at 9:15 am
Oops I meant seventies not nineties.
modernity's ghost said,
March 22, 2012 at 11:16 am
Ken’s defenders have not address the substance of the letter from the Labour supporters to Ed Miliband.
Andrew Coates said,
March 22, 2012 at 2:01 pm
Sarah, I would pay attention to how feelings our running high on this.
Livingstone is transparent.
Anybody who is a politico can recall how he scans meetings with his gimlet eye, trying to spot people who can be of use to him.
blerehgc ocmaomnetareyr said,
March 22, 2012 at 3:16 pm
‘I’ve got no change, Will. Sorry.’
I’m not Will you thick fuck. At any rate, it’s only too typical that a pro-tory, scab supporting mate of London’s corporate elite (Lucy Toube, Ezra fuckwit, kAMM etc) likes to denigrate the homeless. The rightwing racist bastard s&s would no doubt support the social ‘cleansing’ Britain’s inner city vagrants – they are an unpleasant thing to have to see for a proto-fascist thug like sackcloth. Puts the toff (and human excrement) off his champagne quaffing.
sackcloth and ashes said,
March 22, 2012 at 4:00 pm
You still need help, though, before you go postal.
And as for my political position, I am fully committed both to the maintenance of the NHS and to the sustainment of the welfare state – not least because it stops nutters like you from going feral.
blerehgc ocmaomnetareyr said,
March 22, 2012 at 5:02 pm
‘I am fully committed both to the maintenance of the NHS and to the sustainment of the welfare state’
No you are not you lying little cunt. You devote an inordinate amount of time to ranting online about trots and muslims whilst the tories dismantle the NHS and the welfare state. Oh and at the height of that attack you advocate scabbing and voting tory! The only thing you are ‘committed’ to is hanging out with far right online nutcases like ‘Mr Danger’ (pinochet was right) and ‘Nick (South Africa) (kill the bleks)’ . Once again: off you fuck.
blerehgc ocmaomnetareyr said,
March 22, 2012 at 3:30 pm
There is no dialogue to be had with the likes of Sackcloth and Ashes – the utter destruction of his ilk and everything that they stand for is the only basis upon which any remotely viable politics can be built. Sackcloth and the Weltanschauung he represents must be swept into the shithole of history.
trotskythesnowman said,
March 23, 2012 at 10:38 pm
I think sweeping things is probably beyond you, William. You’d be better suited to bellowing incoherently in between hacking coughs and vomits while proper grownups who have the ability to wield brooms do the sweeping.
Faster Pussycat Miaow! Miaow! Miaow! said,
March 24, 2012 at 12:20 am
Anyone else smell HP Sauce?
ETA Barbecue is much better.
blerehgc ocmaomnetareyr said,
March 22, 2012 at 5:03 pm
Also, note sackclothes ongoing use of tory vocabulary: ‘going feral’. Very revealing.
sackcloth and ashes said,
March 22, 2012 at 8:44 pm
Here’s a song for you, nutjob:
skidmarx said,
March 22, 2012 at 10:28 pm
I imagine this would be how Will would reply to the little fascist, though I’d still find some four-letter words a bit taboo:
sackcloth and ashes said,
March 23, 2012 at 1:07 pm
As a brownshirt scumbag and a genocide denier, you should know better than to throw around the term ‘fascist’, you walking haemorrhoid.
You and Will deserve each other.
blreg cometrneatyer said,
March 22, 2012 at 11:51 pm
Just to recap then, the things that sackcloth considerings worthy of derision:
* Homelessness
*alcoholism
*mental illness
Anybody remotely leftwing would consider all of these to be serious social problems and wouldn’t throw them about in such a crass manner. Doesn’t stop a rightwing tory bastard like sackcloth and ashes of course. You wonder why he hangs around a blog that has ‘socialist’ emblazoned on its masthead (laughably so admittedly) when he go wank over the monday club website or something.
trotskythesnowman said,
March 23, 2012 at 10:34 pm
They’re certainly serious social problems in your compact & bijou cardboard box, Will, no matter how ideally situated it clearly is for al fresco pre-midday Buckfast downing. Get help.
blreg cometrneatyer said,
March 22, 2012 at 11:53 pm
Song 4 sLaSHcoCK anD ARSES:
Faster Pussycat Miaow Miaow Miaow! said,
March 23, 2012 at 5:50 am
Anyone for cider?
Faster Pussycat Miaow Miaow Miaow! said,
March 23, 2012 at 5:56 am
Saw this at the Guardian earlier and thought of sLaSHcoCK anD ARSES:
‘When it comes it will be swift, brutal and bloody’.
I’ll bring my knitting. In the meantime, another cider I think.
sackcloth and ashes said,
March 23, 2012 at 1:04 pm
‘Anybody remotely leftwing would consider all of these to be serious social problems and wouldn’t throw them about in such a crass manner’.
Says the man who talks about gassing people and throwing them into Gulags.
Wanker.
SteveH said,
March 24, 2012 at 9:40 am
In defence of Sackcloth,
at least he is openly saying what the rest of you want! This sectarian barrage of abuse against Ken shows that if Boris wins the posse would not be displeased. Next time they will get their New Labour friend of Israel candidate.
Jonathan Freeland , in the Guardian has come over all communalist, by dropping support for Ken. I know how Ken feels actually, I can give an insight into his mentality. When you are constantly slandered, defamed and libelled for being a Nazi or anti Semitic or racist, when in reality, you spend your life fighting those things, you just in the end say “well fuck you, I will just treat you with utter contempt”.
“Communalism – the idea that people should relate to each other primarily on the basis of their community or religious identities, is a poison that the British labour movement has taken years to purge”
This is what the people attacking Ken are indulging in, as well as extreme sectarianism. Having said that and for the record, I have never thought ‘communalism’ to be that much of a poison. Sectarianism on the other hand………
Jim Denham said,
March 24, 2012 at 4:16 pm
Mr H: “Jonathan Freeland , in the Guardian has come over all communalist…”
Oh yeah? I’d say he’s reacting (perhaps *overreacting*) to Livingstone’s adopted Islamic communalism. Friedland’s piece is explicitly anti-communalist, but condemns Livingstone’s antisemitism.
Readers who haven’t seen it yet can do so here:
http://www.guardian.co.uk/commentisfree/2012/mar/23/backed-ken-livingstone-mayor-before
Interesting, too that MrH thinks communalism isn’t “that much of a poison.” Try telling that to leftwing trade unionists (old enough to remember) in Liverpool and Glasgow, you ignoramous!
SteveH said,
March 24, 2012 at 4:57 pm
Screaming ignoramous and other such abuses is typical of your approach to the ‘communalism’ question.
The problem is that you are lumping sectarianism (as in the North of Ireland variety) with Ken Livingstone’s appeal to the Muslim community. The left try to play down differences in sex, colour, religion etc and unite people to socialist ideas but the left historically have always sought sympathy with oppressed minorities. And playing down the differences does not mean you ignore them in the hope they go away. In contrast the right divide people along lines of sex, colour, religion etc. You have lumped both left and right positions into one term, ‘communalism’.
I don’t really accept the idea of communalism on the terms you dictate it anyway. You see no difference between left and right ‘communalism’ and create in its place an idealised set of principles that people become attracted to. That is how sects become sects, by alienating themselves from reality. This is why sectarianism is poisonous and ‘communalism’ isn’t.
What I don’t find poisonous is this attempt by the left to appeal to different sections of society from the point of view of their religion, colour, sex etc. Marx was in favour of a women’s section in the first international. He wrote that you can’t abolish faith by decree, which is another way of saying you have to take people as they are and not as you want them to be.
Freeland is indulging in communalism on the terms you dictate. His mentioning of how Democrats seek and get the Jewish vote is a form of communalism he has no problem with. Incidentally and for the record, neither do I. Black people tend to vote democrat too and for very obvious communal reasons. The democrats are correct to engage with these demographics, and on their terms. Only the sects, built on high ideals and low numbers, could object.
Freeland’s article is, while ‘communalist’, bordering on the puritanical, which makes the hypocrisy even worse.
SteveH said,
March 24, 2012 at 5:10 pm
Incidentally I am off out now for a jaunt round Sheffield, but first going for a drink in Ecclesfield. If any of you tossers are in the area and can drag yourselves away from the Net feel free to say hello!
Jim Denham said,
March 24, 2012 at 9:53 pm
SteveH: the left (including the Communist Party) spent decades in Liverpool, Glasgow and even Birmingham, fighting Catholic Action and the power of priests to tell people who to vote for in union elections, internal Labour Party elections and (of course) local and general elections. Was that fight, in your opinion, a waste of time and a failure to empathise with the culture of poor Irish immigrants / poor Scots ‘natives’? In which case a significant part of the history of the British left will have to be fundamentally re-assesed and re-written. Catholic Action, it seems, were right after all!
Freedland makes it clear that the Jews present at that meeting wanted to set aside their religious/cultural reservations about Livingstone, in order to vote for him. But Livingstone’s antisemitic posturing made it impossible for them to do so.
Opposing communalism does not mean (and never has meant) asking people to disavow their ethnic, cultural or even religious backgrounds: just that they should vote, organise and act on the basis of class. In a sense, that was what Freedland and the other Jews who met Livingstone were asking him to allow them to do. His racism and arrogance made that impossible.
Livingstone is the communalist, not that group of Jews. As ever, MrH, you have things exactly the wrong way round.