Tahrir Square this morning: eye witness account
Comrade Pete reports:
Having just returned from Tahrir Square, I can understand some, only some, of what Abu Faris has written.
Tahrir Square, at least at 10 this morning, had very little politics and felt a little chaotic and probably unwelcoming for “solidarity tourists” like Abu Faris, as well as myself.
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But I only arrived in Cairo at 11:30 last night and missed the congregation shown in
. It is clear from that a lot of the people on the streets were NOT football hooligans, probably many the families and friends of those Ahly fans who died, many others simply those who can believe that the Security forces could well have planned the massacre in the stadium.
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But looking at that demonstration and talking with the taxi-driver who kindly drove us by Tahrir last night, those youth do enjoy considerable support. As he said they want their revenge on the police and security. The reports from sources that I have looked at show very strong involvement by the security in encouraging the attack on Ahly’s fans by Al-Masry fans. The Egypt Daily News carries reports of 25,000 Al-Masry fans being freely able to bring weapons into the ground. Exit points being closed for the far smaller number of Ahly fans.
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There may be other explanations of this than of a conspiracy at the highest level.
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This could be a mixture of incompetence and lower ranks of the police not giving a fuck what happened to the ‘disloyal’ Ultras of Ahly.
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But there are benefits for the regime in what happened.
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In Egypt at present there is a huge amount of chaos, considerable lawlessness – a lot the result of unemployment and the terrible state of the economy not least the result of the collapse of tourism. Walking round the run-down city centre of Cairo I didn’t see one non-Arabic person in 2 hours!
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We are aware in Britain of how the police play games with the political authorities and the public. After a bad press, such as they got with the death of Stuart Tomlinson, they will let something like the invasion of Millbank happen. ‘You either let us do what we do or we will let chaos happen’, might be their refrain. But in the UK we don’t have a police state, the Egyptian security forces are playing for far higher stakes.
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Some Islamists or nationalists are even arguing that the West are behind the Port Said massacre – reason? Because only the West gains from the continuing Egyptian crisis?!
From what I have read the nature of the Ultras is also a little more complex than Abu Faris implies. As Paul Mason reports in his book “why it is all kicking off everywhere” the regime attempted to use the Ultras in the first day or two of last year’s revolt but after seeing how the police were deceiving them about the nature of the Tahrir uprising, they swung instead behind it.
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Despite the violent tribalism of football hooliganism, this is what you might hope for in a genuine popular revolution. But the alliance that made the Tahrir days of Jan 2011 is breaking up. Without a working class leadership to that revolt in Egypt, it will continue to break up.
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It will be interesting to know how the trade unions view the Ultras and their conflict with the security forces. I don’t yet have anything to report on that.
dylans12 said,
February 4, 2012 at 4:23 pm
This is a good post and raises a number of questions that are worth considering.
The first is to what extent the crisis on the streets is affecting the MB both as an organisation (in particular I am thinking of its youth) and in Parliament. The limits of Parliamentary power are going to be tested over the next few weeks if and when the MB attempt to challenge the military and Interior ministry over responsibility for these events. As such I think the riots and conflict, although seemingly pointless and rather ritualistic in form do serve a purpose, that of pushing those in Parliament to challenge the SCAF in particular over any attempts to continue the Emergency Law and the provisions in it around “thuggery”. Anything that serves to demonstrate the limits of Parliamentary power in regards to the military rule can only serve to both undermine peoples faith in its power and harden attitudes towards the military.
You touch on the most important question in all this, that of the organised working class and independant unions and their response both the the present crisis and to the bigger question of continued military rule. This, of course is the real issue. This is a revolution but there has not been regime change, the deep state remains and the burning question is the question of the continuation of military power and privilege in any post transitional order.
Abu Faris said,
February 4, 2012 at 7:08 pm
Yes, a good post – although I am not a “solidarity tourist”, I live in Cairo, having moved to the city some two days before the Revolution kicked off last year (no, I am not personally responsible for the same, as some Egyptians I know jokingly claim). I was previously down the river in Khartoum for some five years.
There are some issues with which I would take issue. If you take a butchers at most (if not all) of the output of the Egyptian Left there is a stark continuity with core issues also raised by the clerical fascists of MB and beyond. Principally, a view of the past state relations with neighbouring Israel as not in Egypt’s national interests – together with a shrill and often barely disguised anti-Semitism masquerading as “anti-imperialist” anti-Zionism. The lack of differentiation between the minute Egyptian Left and the Islamists, indeed between the entire secularist and liberal wing of the Revolution and the Islamists on this question, has cost the Left, the secularists and liberals dearly politically.
There are long-term historical reasons for the demise of the Egyptian Left, especially its love-in with Nasserist nationalism, its subsequent ejection from the political scene and its continued addiction to the very political agenda that are more being driven by the Islamists. All have meant that the Egyptian Left will continue to take a back seat politically until it disengages from the politics being set and quite successfully pursued by interest groups such as MB, who should – realistically – be the very last people to whom the Left feels drawn. The red-brown alliance with Islamist clerical fascism that has crippled so much of the so-called revolutionary Left in the West is not just a Western phenomenon, it also underpins the failure of the Left – and more broadly the progressive, liberal and secularist wing of the Revolution to make inroads in the year since the Revolutionary Days of last January and February.
On the issue of weapons being allowed into the football ground at Port Said, as I pointed out in my article at Harry’s Place, there is nothing especially unusual about that. The Egyptian police are corrupt, incompetent and most often drawn from the local communities in which they served. As I wrote on HP, short of attempting to wheel an anti-aircraft gun through the turnstiles, eyes would have been averted at the array of machetes, fireworks, butcher’s cleavers, guns and assorted ninja stars and blackjacks being carried by local ultras. Egyptian footie is unbelievably rough (on and off the pitch) and this massacre was really rather waiting to happen.
Now the fact that various political players (especially SCAF and MB) have some real bones they can make out of this issue hardly speaks of some vast conspiracy – it rather tells of the very quick opportunism of those players, rising to the chance of making some political capital out of another piece of Egyptian footie ultra-violence. If you read the comments on HP, you will note that I (and the commenter alfie, amongst others) are indicating some growing tensions between the junta-Islamist alliance that has dominated Egyptian politics since roughly last Spring.
Finally, I am not sure from where you think the “working class” leadership of the Revolution is going to arise: the working class constituencies in the polls were some of the strongholds of the Islamist vote. The CP is a typical post-Stalinist organisation with minute popular support, the so-called Revolutionary Socialists are nowhere beyond a few blogs. The vast majority of Egyptians remain – as they have for centuries – either semi-employed in the slums of the great cities, newly arrived from the fields, or are still peasants tied to traditional ways of life and deeply conservative points of view, especially politically, in which stability of markets and law and order, together with reinforcement of the religiously founded norms of peasant life are the targets of their sporadic political activity.
Abu Faris said,
February 4, 2012 at 7:09 pm
“There are some issues with which I would take issue…”
Eeek! Sorry about that, in a rush.
Abu Faris said,
February 4, 2012 at 7:21 pm
Oh – and Jim, if you read my article carefully, you will note that I did *not* say that Midan Tahrir was only full of ultras – what I wrote was that the place was starkely different from its appearance and the sorts of people who were there this time last year.
And Pete, I do hope you did not take a Black and White taxi around Tahrir last night – you want to use a white taxi and get the bugger to switch the meter on. It may not seem like a lot of money to you, when Drive rips you off for 100 LE, but it makes my life a whole lot more difficult as a khawaga the next day after you have trained the driver to think that non-Egyptians are fair game!
Again, I an’t no solidarity tourist, Pete – I live here.
Abu Faris said,
February 4, 2012 at 7:23 pm
Apologies, Pete… not Jim. It’s been a long day.
Abu Faris said,
February 4, 2012 at 8:33 pm
I am also a little taken aback to discover that Cde Pete also believes that the context is a little bit more complex than I describe in my article. He blithely informs me that the ultras were previously courted by the old regime – and in the process makes me suspicious that he may not have made it past the title of my article over on HP. Mainly because I make almost exactly the same comment myself, within the first few paragraphs of myt own article.
“Despite the violent tribalism of football…” Erm, you are aware that a common feature of Egyptian ultra fanaticism is a penchant for extreme anti-Semitic chants, slogans and banners?
Are you really sure you want the Blackshirts on “your side”? I am sure I do not.
Clive said,
February 4, 2012 at 9:45 pm
Abu Faris – You’re right that the working class isn’t going to suddenly, overnight, take the lead in the revolution.
But the extraordinary fact is that there now is a real workers’ movement in Egypt – meaning the new, independent unions. A year ago there were only four independent unions (and only one of them was of any size). There had been significant working class militancy in the form of strikes, etc; but there was no *movement*.
I say extraordinary because the general landscape of the region has been, for a very long time, pretty depressing from the point of view of such developments. I studied Egypt and lived there when I was a post-grad in the 1980s, and in the end I got disillusioned, I guess, because there was so little a socialist could get excited about. Now that has radically changed.
Of course you’re right that at the moment many (maybe most) working class – or, certainly, poor – people must have voted for the MB or the Nur, but the idea of the working class – eventually – forging an independent path and drawing the rest of society behind it is to do with this movement – with the new movement finding its way politically.
That, and the existence of the broad secular youth movement (I know it’s a complex thing, lots of different groups, etc, so I know I’m generalising), seems to me to mean that *even though* the MB and what have you are on top at the moment there are good reasons to think things could change for the better.
Couple of questions, if I may:
First, I’ve heard this about the Ultras and anti-semitism. Do you know if that’s true generally, or is it just some of them? Are there particular political influences, or is this just a reflection of broader Egyptian prejudices?
And, if it’s not too cheeky – it sounds, from what you say, that you’re a khawaga, too. Is that right? Oh, and which bit of Cairo do you live in? (That;’s just ’cause I’m interested, it’s not meant to be a politically leading question).
Abu Faris said,
February 4, 2012 at 10:09 pm
Clive
Yes, there is now an independent trade union movement in Egypt; and that is to be welcomed. However, I do think that people may get a bit starry-eyed. If you look at the election results, broken down by region and city, you will find that MB and the an-Nuur Salafi coalition did well in very strong working class districts and zones (for example, in the Delta cotton towns).
The “broad secular youth movement” can be a bit disappointing too. If the conduct of the April 16th Youth Movement are anything to go by, then the term “secular” is a little stretched for an organisation that recently officially described itself as “conservative” and supportive of the “traditional religious values” of the Egyptian people. Their conduct over the “Naked Blogger” incident late last year was a revolting display of abject cringing before the Islamists and political opportunism.
On the Ultras and anti-Semitism – I do think we need to be careful *not* to underplay this critical ideological stance in Egyptian politics. Anti-Semitism is the mortar that binds together the Left, the Centre and the Right (including the clerical fascist Islamist blocs). It is, in fact, the essential issue (the link that picks up all the others) for the Egyptian Left (although it presently fails to recognise this) – as it is the issue which allows a sharp differentiation between itself and the Islamists, the Nasserist nationalists and the liberals. Yes, it is clearly founded in “traditional” Egyptian xenophobia and Jew-hatred; but this neither ammeliorates nor excuses its wide-spread presence across the whole spectrum of Egyptian politics.
If you do not mind, I am not going to openly tell you which part of Cairo I live in – let me say that it is not the Euro-friendly climes of Ma’adi or Zamalek.
Abu Faris said,
February 4, 2012 at 10:47 pm
…nor in the gated community ex-pat hell of Rehaab either… (“I don’t want to go to Rehaab”, I sing to the taxi driver). My landlord is enough of a harami, without wishing to live next door to international school teachers scared to ever leave the shelter afforded by the new suburbs out along the Ring Road and their Mubarak-era Egyptian neighbours, thank you very much.
damon said,
February 4, 2012 at 11:07 pm
I don’t know why there being a popular hatred of Israel … and widespread anti-semitism unfortunately – should be anything other than expected in Egypt. Given the two countries history and the occupation of the West Bank and Gaza.
Abu Faris said,
February 4, 2012 at 11:23 pm
Personally, I would ignore Damon. He is a rather annoying troll who loves to engage in simplistic comments designed to make others bite.
He appears to have trailed me here from HP because he is not being allowed to derail a thread there (as is his wont).
damon said,
February 4, 2012 at 11:49 pm
I have found Abu Faris to be quite a narcissist who jumps to personal abuse at the drop of a hat if you question his narrow view of something. He raised anti-semitism several times in his posts on HP and here, and I would just ask why that is so relevant to what’s happening in Egypt. Israel is an enemy to much of the Arab world, and it is perfectly normal to dehumanise your enemies. Everyone does it.
The Americans do it everytime they go to war. We did it in the Falklands, and even to a degree in Northern Ireland in our own state.
Saying that is not ”derailing” – it’s a fair point I think.
Abu Faris said,
February 4, 2012 at 11:52 pm
Here we go… Y>A>W>N. Don’t say I didn’t warn you…
Abu Faris said,
February 4, 2012 at 11:58 pm
*Rolls eyes*
Erm… as I explained in the comments above (and in my article on HP), Damon, because anti-Semitism is a rather important and salient feature of Egyptian politics.
As commenters here may not be aware, Damon has a bit of an aversion to anyone pointing out that there is such an item as anti-Semitism, or that people may be motivated by anti-Semitism.
Heaven only knows why.
damon said,
February 5, 2012 at 12:09 am
This is what he does. I’m talking about Egypt, he just plays the man.
I’d be most intrested in knowing about the influence of the middle class students. I’m guessing that they’re too few in number to have much – when things like this happen, or in the elections.
Abu Faris said,
February 5, 2012 at 12:26 am
He tried this tack on over at HP too… and got told to sling his hook. That is after, of course, he got himself banned over on the late Pickled Politics for trolling endlessly after Jai, of all people.
I know, Damon – let’s talk about *you*. Sigh.
I’ll leave you all to enjoy the attention-seeking delights of Damon.
G’night.
Abu Faris said,
February 5, 2012 at 12:30 am
You may be interested in the role of “middle class students”, Damon – but that is not what this thread, nor the one over on HP was about. And how exactly was I *not* writing about Egypt?
Honestly, you really a bloody nuisance. Shoo.
damon said,
February 5, 2012 at 1:16 am
That’s Abu Faris in a nutshell. He puts the boot in and then blames the other person.
I think anti-semitism or any form of racism is lamentable, so what was said above is not true. Why the anti-semitism that exists in Egypt is really relevant though at the moment is what I questioned, as it can hardly be a priority right now. You might as well tell Americans to just drop their form of ultra patriotism.
Of course hatred of Israel runs deep in Egyptian society, and that’s going to be mixed in with anti-semitism too.
How could it not be in a country like Egypt?
To expect that to change quickly is to be unrealistic.
If you think me making that point is so unreasonable, then maybe Abu Faris is right. I think he’s belligerent to the point of being plain obnoxious.
But that’s just my opinion.
As for the middle class students ….. it was only a question. I wondered how much interaction they really had with events on the ground, and away from places like central Cairo.
Abu Faris said,
February 5, 2012 at 1:32 am
Damon,
Stop it. It is not big and it is not clever.
Right that’s it, folks. I am out of here.
Clive said,
February 5, 2012 at 7:07 am
Anti-semitism is very relevant and very depressing. I think even that type of anti-Zionism which is not, on the face of it, anti-semitic – that is, opposition to what Israel did and does in Gaza; criticism of Egyptian governments for their closeness to repressive Israeli governments, etc – is a problem. It is certainly a problem on the Egyptian left, and has been for a long time. In the eighties, after the Peace Treaty was signed, the Left (broadly defined) operated a boycott – meaning they wouldn’t talk to any Israelis, even left-wing ones. This is clearly a self-defeating and chauvinistic attitude.
Right now, for instance, there is an obvious urgency for the ‘protest’ movement in Egypt to link with the protest movement in Israel. There are literal, and not merely propagandist, issues in common (world recession, etc). Similarly, the new workers’ movement has in interest in making links with the Histadrut, or at least elements in it. But anything like that is completely outside the ‘discourse’ in Egypt – to the extent that nobody could suggest it and not become a pariah.
I taket your point about not being ‘dewy eyed’. Maybe I am, a bit. But I hope not. And my point was about the broader context. Compared to what existed, or what even seemed *likely* just over a year ago, there have been some fantastic developments – that is, that there is an independent workers’ movement at all.
One reason there is such a movement is that there are enough militants who have been – for decades, in some cases – preparing for it, building it. In one kind of narrative of how opposition movements develop in ‘Muslim countries’, these militants – ie working class, trade unionist, often (if not usually) some kind of leftist, and not Islamist (usually) – would not exist. They saw the opportunity, and the urgency of acting on it. That’s a cause for hope, I think. There is a real social force in Egypt which can be a vehicle for change.
That is, there is an *agency* for a politics which can combat Islamism and neo-liberalism in a way there was not before. Developing a political movement through and with the new unions will not be easy. But it’s possible, now – in the sense that the idea has some real purchase; there are layers of militants, even small ones, which can be attracted to it. (On which, another question: you’ve mentioned that the Revolutionary Socialists don’t exist much on the ground. What about the Workers Democratic Party, in which they’re involved, but which seems to also involve some prominent trade unionists?)
Clive said,
February 5, 2012 at 7:09 am
Even *if* small ones, that is. It’s the layers which are small, not the militants.
SteveH said,
February 5, 2012 at 11:13 am
I have always made the point that Israel is a great boost for reactionaries in the Middle East, Abu confirms the belief. It is used as a tool to control the population – though of course as with all forms of populism there is some justification to the reaction. The demise of Israel would be a great day for progressives!
I suspect the ruling classes in the Middle East have made some token concessions to the great mass unrest but now we see the line being drawn. In Tunisia, for example, the government have been pumping out anti strike propaganda, telling people it is costing jobs and investment. The struggle is being contained but the problems are not going away.
I subsribe to this quote from Tuniain socialists, which is very relevant to Shiraz:
“Those forces on the left who argue that a first, ‘democratic capitalism’ stage needs to be fulfilled before talking of socialism are misleading the working class. Because capitalism is only interested in exploiting workers, not in putting in place a real democracy.”
Abu Faris said,
February 5, 2012 at 11:38 am
Steve H
“The demise of Israel would be a great day for progressives!”
No it would not, it would be a carnival of reaction. What an idiotic comment.
damon said,
February 5, 2012 at 11:26 am
”Right now, for instance, there is an obvious urgency for the ‘protest’ movement in Egypt to link with the protest movement in Israel.”
Why? I’m not any expert on the region, but I’d have thought there was almost nothing in common between the peoples of Israel and Egypt.
Visiting Dahab in Sinai several years ago, there were lots of young Israelis in the resort town, but some local waiters and bar staff told me that no one there liked the Israelis. They were unpopular, even though the locals took their money. The anti-semitism that does exsist is because the Arab world and Israel have been enemies for so long. I don’t think Israelis have a much higher view of many – or even most Arabs. Certainly not the ones they have under occupation in the West Bank and Gaza. Israel can be seen like the ”successful Crusade” which reconquered the Holy Land.
And we know the Mamluks of Egypt saw that as their territory and drove off both Crusaders and the Mongols from the region.
And I can’t see the Israelis who have been protesting about the conditions of their own lives being more difficult, really giving much thought about textile workers in Egypt whose lives are totally different in every way.
Harry’s Place is a difficult environment for anyone who doesn’t follow their very partisan line closely. As we can see from Abu Faris’ behavior.
He comes across as a pretty unpleasant person.
Anti-semitism in Egypt will wane when things become more normalised in the region and there’s a solution to the Israel/Palestine issue.
Abu Faris said,
February 5, 2012 at 11:40 am
I think that is really quite enough of Damon’s trolling. He is simply repeating the same things over and over. Tedious.
Who cares what Damon thinks of me? I don’t.
Abu Faris said,
February 5, 2012 at 11:47 am
Clive
“In the eighties, after the Peace Treaty was signed, the Left (broadly defined) operated a boycott – meaning they wouldn’t talk to any Israelis, even left-wing ones. This is clearly a self-defeating and chauvinistic attitude.”
Effectively, the Egyptian Left still takes this line. Notably, the Egyptian Communist Party. If you read Arabic, Clive, I would recommend you take a look at their blog.
“What about the Workers Democratic Party, in which they’re involved, but which seems to also involve some prominent trade unionists?)”
An interesting development, mired by their own addictions to “anti-imperialist’ grievance mongering, “militant anti-Zionism” and Egyptian nationalism. I commend their view that MB is counter-revolutionary; however they appear to want to draw a distinction between the organisational form (al-Ikhwaan) and the ideology (Islamism), struggling against the former whilst avoiding confrontation with the latter – which suggests, despite their claims otherwise, that they have taken in very little from their readings of Marx and Lenin.
Clive said,
February 5, 2012 at 12:07 pm
Yeah, I’m not inclined to get drawn into a conversation with someone who thinks two people in neighbouring countries, both facing world recession and both with popular movements out on the street, have nothing in common – because he went to a holiday resort once and Israeli tourists weren’t much liked by the locals.
Abu Faris – sadly, I used to read Arabic (slowly) a long time ago, but now it’s a bit too slow to endure. Last time I went to Egypt it was rather frustrating – I could understand probably every third or fourth word, but that doesn’t exactly equal *understanding* anything at all.
I think one thing which might help is that the new unions, from the outset, have been interested in international trade union links – that is, with the IFTU, and therefore, within it (for instance) the AFL. They want to be a proper trade union federation. Those kind of attitudes to the Histadrut, then, say, don’t mix with that orientation. Certainly, I think developing links on our side could be a way to help them grow politically. (Not that we/other unions won’t have anything to learn, also, from a new, independent movement).
I’m interested to know where you think there might be something definitely positive worth focusing on.
The Revolutionary Socialists, as I understand it, have been partly distinguished from the rest of the historic left by their readiness to collaborate with the Brotherhood (eg in campaigns over Gaza). If the WDP at least defines the MB organisationally as reactionary – well, that’s something! (And the general orientation of building a wider working class party is pretty different from the SWP’s, and quite different to what SWP affiliates have done elsewhere, eg South Africa in the eighties).
Right now the temptation for anyone on the left hostile to the MB is to build links in the other direction, with the secular liberals. That, I think, would be disastrous in the long term, as the secular liberals are essentially all neo-liberal, and the key to any working class political movement is a programme for the economy. What do you think?
Abu Faris said,
February 5, 2012 at 12:47 pm
I think, rather than re-writing what I wrote over on HP, I shall copy and paste it:
“the lack of liberal and secularist traditions in the Egyptian political culture (and across the MENA generally) has meant that these forces have not been able to make any purchase in the aftermath of the overthrow of the regional dictatorships and the states have defaulted to basically religiously-grounded political traditions. [...]
One of the features of the MENA region is that economic and social development has not seen the bearers of these changes also exhibiting liberal or secular values. In the West, the emergence of modern economies and societies were marked by a mercantile and industrial class wedded to more or less liberal ideas of democracy and the separation of Church and state.
In the MENA, in contrast, the enablers of socio-economic change have either been traditional tribal elites (the Arabian Peninsula) or have been other sorts of “big men” (dictators usually of a military sort) who have relied on traditional familial, clan and tribal links to assert their rule and have benefited the band of clients within their patronage network. Capitalism, more or less, but with a traditionalist and tribalist face. Consequently, the emergence of liberal and secularist norms have failed to take root.
At the same time, as a consequence of prior colonial rule, liberal and secular values have everywhere been taken as impositions on the part of the former colonial rulers and were rejected out of hand by the nationalist political players as alien and hostile to the national liberation of the states. Combined with a weak sense of national identity (which was compensated for by pan-Arabism and pan-Islamism), this meant that liberal and secularist forces were, from the outset, regarded with open hostility by the nationalist political forces and – consequently – the already traditionalist and conservative, religiously minded, mostly rural constituencies they dragged along in their wake.
In the long run, yes, democracy, consistent and thorough-going, is the only solution to the issues of the MENA region; but there are considerable hurdles. This is the reason why I persistently assert that without confrontation of a range of issues concerning human rights, there can be no progress along that road. In particular, the deep-set anti-Semitic views of the majority need direct confrontation and exposure. No secularist or liberal force will ever make any headway in states where the population remains wedded to ideas so medieval, backward and chauvinist as exist in the MENA states. It is really that simple – and also that difficult.”
Certainly, I would agree with you, however, Clive, that what is vital is that the new Egyptian Left carve out a position for themselves independent of both the Islamist right and the centrist Liberals – however, the latter are no threat to anyone.
SteveH said,
February 5, 2012 at 12:22 pm
Abu,
“No it would not, it would be a carnival of reaction”
A carnival of reaction over and above the carnival of reaction already existing?
SteveH said,
February 5, 2012 at 12:31 pm
I also find it staggering that anyone from the Middle East would post articles on a racist sewer like Harry’s place. Have you no dignity?
Justice for Palestine!
Abu Faris said,
February 5, 2012 at 12:49 pm
I am not going to dignify your nonsense with any sort of reasoned response, SteveH. Unfortunately, I suspect you would be quite immune to such.
Jimmy said,
February 5, 2012 at 11:06 pm
No chance of justice StevieH as long as the Islamist waistcoat bomber jackets are around. Remember that mentally disabled boy being fitted out.
Fascists they are StevieH ma bhoy. Never thought I would live to see such nutters especially being brought up in Glesga with a few dafties.
Clive said,
February 5, 2012 at 12:36 pm
Steve – If the Israelis suddenly decided, collectively, that they felt so bad about what had happened to the Palestinians that they no longer wanted their state, and would just dissolve it; and if the Palestinians, in the first place, simply welcomed this decision, and everyone had a huge group hug, then yes it would all be lovely.
More likely, though, the destruction of Israel would be the result of a war – a war aiming, moreover, at its destruction, fed by Islamist as well as old-school nationalist ideology, in which who knows how many people are killed, Israel is overwhelmed by sheer force of numbers… The victorious states (er… the current regimes, that is – you know, Syria…) are unlikely to set up some glorious democracy on the ashes of Israel. Oh, and the US is unlikely to just shrug and think ‘well, these things happen’.
Yes, it would be worse than the carnival of reaction already existing.
damon said,
February 5, 2012 at 12:52 pm
OK Clive, let me put it another way. What do you think is the most popular view of Israel in Egypt? Is there a clamour for more contact with Israelis and to make common cause? I can’t see it myself, and that’s why I was asking about the middle class students …. and also the leadership of the progressive political parties who might. My thought was that to talk about making common cause with Israelis is what would lose you votes not gain you them.
It’s a nice idea about workers of the world uniting and so forth, but does that go down well in much of the ”Arab street” when it comes to Israel? I have never thought it did. I HAVE picked up some of my opinions from being a tourist in Arab countries, and I’ve been to several of them. One good thing about being a western forigner there is that so many people will want to engage you in conversation, which often turns to politics. I had never heard a good word said about Israel, George Bush, or Tony Blair. I was sitting in a working class cafe in Casablanca watching Al Jazera in 2004 when the news of the assassination of the blind Hamas leader Ahmed Yassin came on …. and it’s an uncomfortable feeling as you don’t know what the locals are thinking.
Of course all the Arab governments used I/P as a distraction though, and prefered their people to get passionate about that rather than the situation in their own country.
But anyway, this is actually a bit of a distraction. There isn’t going to be much solidarity between ordinary Egyptians and Israelis any time soon.
So the focus should just stay on events in Egypt IMO, and forget about the anti-semitism diversion. Sectarian tribal conflicts and emnity between peoples happen all over the world, and the ”Arab/Jew” thing is just another one of them.
Just read the Socialist Workers take on this. As usual it’s quite bizarre.
http://www.socialistworker.co.uk/art.php?id=27432
Who are ”the revolutionaries” they talk of?
Abu Faris said,
February 5, 2012 at 12:55 pm
I really would simply ignore Damon. The fact that he cannot maintain even a semblance of consistency in his arguments suggests that he either suffers from some sort of political logorrhea or is simply an unrelenting troll.
SteveH said,
February 5, 2012 at 1:05 pm
Abu,
I don’t think you are capable of a reasoned repsonse. You are just some mouthpiece. The ‘Arab street’ is wise to treat the likes of you with contempt, someone who posts on a racist sewer like Harry’s place. Give me the Stalinists over you every time.
Clive,
I have said before I am a supporter of the one state solution. When I say demise I don’t mean a war. Who could launch a war on nuclear armed Israel anyway?
The best thing the left can do is to ignore Zionist apologists and oppressor deniers like Abu Faris.
Abu Faris said,
February 5, 2012 at 3:27 pm
I am a mouthpiece of what or for whom, Steve?
Let me guess: the Zionazi Jooz?
Clive said,
February 5, 2012 at 1:19 pm
I’ve already said that the popular view of Israel in Egypt is regrettable – which was why I brought up the protests in Israel in the first place.
Steve, I dare say you don’t want a war. But war as I described it is the only way the ‘demise of Israel’ is going to happen in the foreseeable future. Or, at the very least, it is surely a responsibility of those who want to see ‘the demise of Israel’ only through socialist revolution to make clear that any other kind of ‘demise of Israel’ is something they oppose.
modernity's ghost said,
February 5, 2012 at 1:36 pm
When I read the words of SteveH I am reminded of the need for a strong antiracist & antifacist movement and how its demise led to the rise of the Far Right thinking that he represents.
Whenever there is a discussion on the Middle East, the people of the Middle East, all of them, SteveH like the predictable racist that he is, manages to bring it round to Israel.
When you inquire of such people why? They will, frequently, say they are concerned with human rights in the Middle East,
However, it is illuminating how discussions on events in the Middle East in the past year have rarely focused on overthrowing dictatorial regimes and freeing the people, in fact, there has been a scarcity of cogent analysis in the wake of the uprisings. SU blog is one example.
Of course, you do find some, but it’s piecemeal and lacks any socialist content.
I suspect that “anti-imperialists” were equally caught off guard by the uprising as anyone else and haven’t worked out what they want.
Like Far Righters and Neo-strasserites such as SteveH, they would love to focus everything on the Israelis, but there are some 26 other countries in the region going through convulsions at various levels and it always seems peculiar that “anti-imperialists” and the the Far Right who proclaim their love of Palestinians, wish to ignore the hundreds of millions of people in the region during this time.
So we see a paradox, those who would maniacally focus all Western disapproval on Israelis don’t really have much to say about the uprising in the Middle East.
Again, events in the Middle East have shown how shallow Western haters of Israelis are. They care little about the real people in the Middle East, their interest lies more with being anti-Israeli than any genuine interest in the people of the region.
Abu Faris said,
February 5, 2012 at 1:46 pm
Good stuff, Modernity.
I am dazzled by the intellectual rigour and stunningly creative development of revolutionary theory and practice as exemplified by the stirring writings of SteveH and especially the house surrealist Monseur Jelly.
Formidable, indeed.
Abu Faris said,
February 5, 2012 at 1:47 pm
Surely, it cannot be Munir?
damon said,
February 5, 2012 at 2:58 pm
Clive
”Yeah, I’m not inclined to get drawn into a conversation with someone who thinks two people in neighbouring countries, both facing world recession and both with popular movements out on the street, have nothing in common – because he went to a holiday resort once and Israeli tourists weren’t much liked by the locals.”
They might both be facing downturns due to world recession, but my point is, how are you going to do anything about bringing their respective populations together? Maybe if you’re one of these ”viva revolution” types ….. but that’s not on the cards and so talking about Egyptian and Israeli ”solidarity” becomes a distraction here.
Israel only wants security on its border with Egypt. Nothing else at the moment. In fact, I’m sure it would like Egypt to just absorb Gaza and build a big fence around the whole lot.
Is there even much tourism in both directions? You dissed my anecdote about Israelis in Dahab, Sinai, but I found those young men who worked with the tourists in the guest houses and cafes there, to be some of the most astute and savvy of that kind that I’ve ever come across. They spend their whole days talking with their guests and customers, which then was mostly independent packpacker type tourists at the cheaper end of the market.
They had perfected their English to the point where they had English and American accents. If you spent more than a few days there you would have had several long conversations with many of them. They knew ”everything” about England. All the football teams etc. Many spoke Hebrew too.
When I asked them about their Israeli guests, it was a serious conversation (I thought). The Israelis there were all young, had been, or were in in the army and used Dahab as a bit of a weekend getaway.
Being so close as it is. So you shouldn’t treat what the locals said as just more waiters complaining about their tourists.
Here were young Israelis and young Egyptians face to face, and there was a mutual coolness. The Egyptian’s families would have expierenced Israeli occupation themselves untill 1982, so that might have had some bearing on how they viewed their counterparts from over the border.
Abu Faris said,
February 5, 2012 at 2:59 pm
Yeah, let’s all talk about what you want to talk about, Damon.
Abu Faris said,
February 5, 2012 at 3:00 pm
Damon = troll.
Abu Faris said,
February 5, 2012 at 3:09 pm
You get all the best, most intelligent and incisive commentary from the Left here, I see.
Rosie said,
February 5, 2012 at 3:44 pm
I’d ignore SteveH – he always thinks stuff that he doesn’t agree with has been produced by some Zioconspiracy – generally with payment involved. As for the Israelis – he called them “animals” on a recent thread.
Abu Faris said,
February 5, 2012 at 3:46 pm
Aha, Rosie – that makes sense.
Oh, hang on, that’s another 90 million shekels just rolled into my offshore account, delivered by a Mossad Attack Vulture.
Rosie said,
February 5, 2012 at 3:50 pm
Would that he were right – but our former paymaster, Nathan Rothschild, has fobbed us off by saying ostentatious spending isn’t popular now – look what happened to poor Fred Goodwin.
As for the swearing idiot with his fantasy death threats – ignore him as well. He gets tidied away frequently – but it’s like keeping the Clubbers’ Street free of vomit.
modernity's ghost said,
February 5, 2012 at 10:46 pm
Rosie,
I thought racists like skidmarx had been banned from Shiraz Socialist?
Or does Shiraz Socialist want to encourage them to link up? Surely SteveH is enough?
skidmarx said,
February 6, 2012 at 12:29 am
When you couldn’t give an answer to this question:
I’ve repeatedly asked this, but once again, can you give me a specific example of an anti Jewish remark from Skidmarx? If it has happened and I missed it, then enlighten me and we can move forward.
it became obvious that you’ve got nothing.
Shouldn’t you be banned for your bullying of the councillor from Dunbartonshire? That was despicable.
Abu Faris said,
February 6, 2012 at 2:03 am
SteveH describes himself as a Council Communist. I don’t know about the “communist” bit; but, assuredly, he might benefit from counseling.
skidmarx said,
February 5, 2012 at 10:28 pm
This from the fuckwit who couldn’t spot the most obvious of sarcasm.
Rosie said,
February 6, 2012 at 12:51 am
And Skidmuck’s desperate attempt to deny that SH had said what he had said in the plainest English – thread here.
http://shirazsocialist.wordpress.com/2012/01/31/in-defence-of-little-israel-an-interview-with-michael-walzer/#comments
Touching loyalty on behalf of S’muck but as he really had to make himself look (a) illiterate; or (b) an obvious liar to defend SH, I don’t think it did his credibility much good.
modernity's ghost said,
February 6, 2012 at 1:00 am
Even Bob from Brockley gave up trying to educate Skidmarx.
Skidmarx’s obfuscation over Alison Weir’s racism was probably more than enough for Bob, but please ask him why he tired of Skidmarx’s obsessions.
Abu Faris said,
February 6, 2012 at 2:20 am
How’s Shitstain’s line in Rwandan Genocide denial coming along these days?
skidmarx said,
February 6, 2012 at 8:21 am
It’s your mate Sickbag who denied there was a genocide in Rwanda, not me:
sackcloth and ashes
9 May 2011, 5:31 pm
‘Doesn’t he know the 72 virgins thing is made up?’
Like the Rwandan genocide?
Abu Faris said,
February 6, 2012 at 8:29 am
It’s called sarcasm, genocide denying Strasserist filth.
Abu Faris said,
February 6, 2012 at 11:06 am
Good grief.
damon said,
February 6, 2012 at 12:02 pm
Absolute rot Abu Faris (about me lying about being deleted on HP).
On the thread titled ”Israel? Palestine?” by the former IDF soldier, all I said was that I agreed with someone who said it was a welcome interesting OP. I didn’t say any more, as I know what your pathetic little mate Alec is like, but he deleted it anyway.
It’s you who’s trolled this thread by jumping up and down like a spoilt kid because someone said something you don’t like.
As for accusations of anti-Semitism from Harry’s Place …. they have as much credibility as the boy who cried wolf. They use it as a dishonest slur against ANYONE who is critical of their project. The are the ”Ultras” of the Israeli right wing. I get slated and deleted, but no one says a word about someone calling for a war to drive the Palestinians out of the West Bank like happened on that thread (see 4 February 2012, 7:11 am) where the guy says that the West Bank needs a Jewish majority for there to be peace.
And you (you coward) said hardly a thing on that thread, which is totally your style. I have Jews in my family btw, I support a two state solution and think Israel has a right to be left in peace. But loathing Netanyahu and people like the Israeli spokesman Mark Regev and the Hebron settlers does not make me anti-Semitic.
Regev was born in Australia and chose to get involved in war with Arabs in the Middle Eeast. On HP, saying that makes a person ”anti-Semitic” – which is a joke IMO. But what it really is, is that they just (and you) throw the ”anti-Semite” slur at the drop of a hat, as a (disgraceful) tactic.
If you insist that I was deleted on that I/P thread for saying more that ”Good OP – I completely agree” – then you’re a liar too….which wouldn’t surprise me at all.
Abu Faris said,
February 6, 2012 at 12:07 pm
You are simply weird, Damon. Take your complaints to HP.
I should imagine very few people here are remotely interested in your largely self-inflicted injuries had on other sites.
damon said,
February 6, 2012 at 12:40 pm
”I should imagine very few people here are remotely interested in your largely self-inflicted injuries …..”
I’m sure they don’t. But as this thread is partly about you, or your account of what was going on in Egypt, I thought that people might be interested to know more about the content of your character. Even your last post I remember on Pickled Politics was some whinge about your ”good name” being maligned … or something.
What you and the Harry’s Place attack dogs do to even mild dissent must have a name in internet parlance. You did it yourself here where your reply to my first posting here (which was on topic and reasonable) was this:
”Personally, I would ignore Damon. He is a rather annoying troll who loves to engage in simplistic comments designed to make others bite.”
And then any other comment (good or not) are batted away with contempt …. and soon the accusation of ”trolling” comes. That’s exactly what happened to me on HP with several of the hard right wing pro Israelis joining in.
It’s a construct, or a tactic. It’s to prevent debate and make things bitter and personal, and with luck the person will swear and curse at the person doing this and get banned. We don’t like it when it’s done on the football field with players trying to get their opponents sent off, and it’s pretty despicable on internet forums and discussion around Israel and Palestine too.
I can’t comment on that ”Israel? Palestine?” thread because (the toad) Alec seems to have blocked me, but I was just asking him if he had any problem with the disgusting ”Fabian ben Israel” saying on that thread that ”for peace” it would take war, refugees and a Jewish majority in the West Bank.
Which is about on a par with what Ratko Mladić wanted in Bosnia.
You and Alec didn’t have anything to say about that Abu?
But call me ”anti-Semitic” for finding the HP line a bit too far to the right wing when it comes to Israel.
I have little time for Sunny Hundal, but he was right about you.
Abu Faris said,
February 6, 2012 at 1:55 pm
If you are sure people here are not interested in your persistent grievance mongering, Damon, then why are you continuing?
Weird.
Abu Faris said,
February 6, 2012 at 1:58 pm
Damon, you were basically told to sling your hook by the entire commentariat of HP, left, right and centre in political persuasion. In fact, I have rarely ever seen such unanimity – except perhaps on Pickled Politics just before they gave you the order of the boot too.
One might wonder why you are so deeply unpopular on such radically different blogs, but there we go.
damon said,
February 6, 2012 at 3:03 pm
What earned me the ire of the HP people was to suggest that the CONVICTION of Carole Swords for ”assault” inside a Tesco store was no big deal, because when there are heated poisonous confrontations like that, screaming and possibly slapping (and handbags) is what you would expect ….. and who ends up getting arrested – or not – is a bit of a lottery.
http://www.eastlondonadvertiser.co.uk/news/chair_of_tower_hamlets_respect_party_convicted_1_1194902
”Volunteer Mr Garfield was at the supermarket helping staff protect Israeli products from potential acts of vandalism by the protesters.”
And I had mocked the idea of a Victor Meldrew-like ”Mr Garfield” and this nutty chairwoman of Tower Hamlets Respect party wrestling in the Tesco aisles over a packet of Israeli pistachio nuts.
Which on HP is enough to earn you an accusation of being an ”anti-Semite”.
And you’re a liar Abu Faris is you say this wasn’t how it went.
Anyone can get arrested and convicted of minor offences when two groups face off like that. If someone was convicted of confronting the EDL in Leicester on saturday, that wouldn’t mean they were a bad person, it’s just how it goes. The police arrest anyone.
I made it clear that while I didn’t support harassment of the Israeli shop in Covent Garden, the two groups of protesters and counter protesters were about as nutty as each other.
Instead of hiding behind full frontal attack and then bans (like has happened on HP for me saying this) why don’t you just be honest Abu? Do you really need to stoop to this dishonorable way of conducting yourself?
Is there nowhere on HP for mildly dissenting voices who take issue with the way that the Carole Swords story was set up and presented?
If anyone missed it, here it is, minus the comments.
http://hurryupharry.org/2012/01/28/carole-swords-chair-of-tower-hamlets-respect-convicted/
I was deleted and now banned (I think) for suggesting that they were making a mountain out of a molehill, and that if anyone from the pro-Israeli counter protest had also been convicted of slapping someone – which would easilly be possible in a situation such as that confrontation in the supermarket …. that HP would have been saying it was a shame someone ”defending liberty” had been convicted of a crime.
Maybe that was a somewhat pedantic point for me to make, but worth a full on attack (even by the guy who supports ethnic cleansing in the West Bank) and several deletions and warning from Alec to ”stop commenting on this thread”?
That’s why any talk of ”anti-Semitism” in Egypt from Abu Faris is worthless.
Not because Egypt isn’t dripping with anti-Semitism, but because of the guy who said it here (or there in the post this OP links to) is not credible.
Their (HP’s) accusations of ”anti-Semitism” brings that term into disrepute because they are so dishonest and underhand.
And Abu Faris, you are still free to comment on what ”Fabian ben Israel” said in the ”Israel? Palestine?” thread about peace needing a final war, refugees and a Jewish majority in the West Bank.
I can’t as I’m banned, but you can.
But you won’t will you as you are too close to them.
Abu Faris said,
February 6, 2012 at 4:04 pm
Here’s some Tajik Persian I picked up on my travels for your troubles, Damon:
Man dar farkash nest.
It basically means: I do not care.
I would love to see where I supported ethnic cleansing in the West Bank. Might I suggest you consult a psychiatrist, Damon. They have them in Belfast, nu?
Abu Faris said,
February 6, 2012 at 4:13 pm
“And you’re a liar Abu Faris is you say this wasn’t how it went.”
Erm, I had not even mentioned it, dear.
Evidently, it is seething around in your walnut sized brain. I would develop a healthy hobby, Damon, to distract you when you feel all so overcome by obsessions such as the one just exhibited… how about masturbation?
Abu Faris said,
February 6, 2012 at 4:39 pm
AFAIK Damon, you have not been banned from HP – just warned (repeatedly) about your obsessive need to be contrarian for the sake of it.
damon said,
February 6, 2012 at 4:54 pm
”I would love to see where I supported ethnic cleansing in the West Bank. Might I suggest you consult a psychiatrist, Damon.”
I didn’t say you said it. It was the guy calling himself ”Fabian ben Israel” in this thread at ….. 4 February 2012, 7:11 am.
”….. to have peace we will probably need to have war. With refugees. Again. Until Judea and Samaria has a Jewish majority.”
http://hurryupharry.org/2012/02/04/israel-palestine/
But you haven’t said a thing about those comments, even though you have left other comments on that thread. Where were you and Alec there?
I’m not saying you ”have” to comment on things like that, but you’re quick to tell people to F off all the time, so why let something like that go by without comment?
I don’t really give a shit either really, these are just internet blogs.
But you puff youselves up as being somehow important and relevant, but will lie, and subvert rather than let someone make a fair point if it goes against the ideological line, or you make yourseves look stupid. As you certainly did with Carole Swords. Everyone can see she’s as nutty as a fruitcake and it really was six of one and half a dozen of the other.
And where was my ”anti-Semitism”?
You people are a disgrace for throwing that accusation around so liberally.
As for Pickled Politics … that turned out to be a total lame blog in the end.
Earwicga and Douglas Clark?? The reason I fell foul of some of them is because I had dared to suggest that ”Saint Jai” was going way over the top with his evermore shrill coverage of the EDL.
http://www.pickledpolitics.com/categories/race-politics/edl
For example, one was headlined:
”EDL had threatened to shoot police on Remembrance Day”.
He was another one of these internet puff pieces who couldn’t allow any kind of dissent as it might make him look foolish. So he banned me from commentating on his threads. Which is hardly something to be ashamed of.
Abu Faris said,
February 6, 2012 at 10:32 pm
Damon, you have now successfully derailed another thread on another website.
You are obsessing over stuff in which only you are interested.
Give yourself, and us, a break.
Abu Faris said,
February 6, 2012 at 10:35 pm
Incidentally, do you know how *mad* your last comment reads? You actually manage to complain that I did not complain about something on a long-dead thread on another blog which had no bearing whatsoever on the topics of this thread on this blog.
What is wrong with you?
damon said,
February 7, 2012 at 12:31 am
I will give it a break now. But I thought it may be right to show people what you are actually like. Anyone was free to coment here also.
I’m not ”obsessing” at all really. I couldn’t give a stuff about many of these subjects to be honest. Israel, Palestine, Egypt. I watch the news about Syria and it’s terrible and sad, but I don’t really care either because there’s nothing I can do about it and it’s a long way away.
I am though kind of interested in the phenomena of these internet bloggers who take themselves ever so seriously and think they are part of something really important as they tap away on their computers.
I’ve never really read the CiF Watch website before, but I saw they were talking about it on your Harry’s Place website, so I had a look.
How embarrassing is this?
http://cifwatch.com/2012/02/06/as-islamic-extremists-take-power-in-me-new-statesman-publishes-vicious-attack-on-israel-by-ben-white/
That’s about where you guys are. It’s pathetic. The alarmist writer shrills that…… ”Israel now looks set to be ensnared in a potentially deadly triangle of annihilationist regimes.”
The triangle running between Ankara, Cairo and Tehran.
It sounds like something out of a Fu Manchu story, but that’s just the neighbourhood that Israel sits in.
Not that there are not serious issues to do with the security and future of the whole region, including Israel’s, but it’s that ”anti-Semitism” thing you guys have. Where everyone who doesn’t follow that stupid line is a ”Jew hater” and anyone who does more than a few posts on the subject (taking a contrary view of course) is said to be either that or ”Jew obsessed”.
Which were the exact words Alec used about me after I’d made about six posts. And you have said about the same.
Honestly, I really couldn’t care that much because I don’t respect any of you, but you (Faris) have no credibility.
As for ”a long-dead thread on another blog” ….. OK, if that’s your excuse.
But it’s a pretty shite one since you are such a gobby type most of the time.
You missed those ethnic cleansing comments I suppose.
But were all over my innocuous ones about the fuss your side made of Carole Swords and the supermarket shouting match.
Anyway, you get back now to your important work, I’m done here too.
Abu Faris said,
February 7, 2012 at 2:11 am
Damon
“I am though kind of interested in the phenomena of these internet bloggers who take themselves ever so seriously and think they are part of something really important as they tap away on their computers.”
So shut the fuck up you self-contradicting numpty.
damon said,
February 7, 2012 at 10:22 am
Look twat, you have been abusive to me and been calling me a troll for months now on a few different websites. But saying fuck all yourself most time. It’s easy to sit back and spit abuse from behind a computer.
You are far too two dimensional and don’t understand anything that is nuanced at all …. but expect people to follow that convoluted Zionist argument about what you have to do to not be labelled an ”anti-Semite”.
Which is basicly to roll over and say nothing about the excesses of the Israeli right wing. I think that sucks.
Do your neighbours know what you’re like?
damon said,
February 7, 2012 at 6:21 pm
Now hopefully that aggro is at an end, this is the kind of thing I was talking about in my first post when I talked about ”the middle class students”.
The rather attractive Gigi Ibrahim, who I saw a copuple of times on Newsnight, has fallen in with the SWP it looks like. Which is a terrible shame, but she still has plenty of interesting things to say, and I have no doubt about her passion for her country’s future.
If Faris hadn’t been such a dick, it would have been interesting to hear some real opinions about this side of things too.
Like how representitive that group is on the ground, or whether they are just too few and middle class to make any real difference
Jimmy said,
February 7, 2012 at 9:56 pm
I am sure some clever talking middle class SWP Marxist will give her his favourite. For the cause !
Abu Faris said,
February 8, 2012 at 2:28 pm
God, you are such a fucking weird moron, damon.
damon said,
February 9, 2012 at 9:47 am
You don’t hang out with Gigi and her friends then Abu?
modernity's ghost said,
February 5, 2012 at 4:07 pm
Rosie,
If Shiraz Socilaist are going to allow SteveH space to push his own form of racism then NO, we should not ignore it.
We should remind him daily, of his own hangups, his prejudices, his own racism and why his pretense at caring for people in the Middle East, is just that, a pretense.
SteveH has serious hangups with Jews, he articulates a Neo-strasserism and we should not ignore it.
SteveH is a symbol of how people once on the Left are not immune to prejudice and can turn bad, sometimes.
Rosie said,
February 5, 2012 at 4:26 pm
Well, I can’t be arsed to get into a thread to point out SteveH’s lack of logic, ignorance, self-contradiction, ideological distortions and general dodginess. Life’s too short. I think he displays his own malignant idiocy with everything he writes – he’s hardly subtle, is he? As you say, he is an exemplar of someone who thinks himself Left getting into the “Zionists control everything” mode – a kind of Atzmon without being able to play the saxophone. But I doubt if he’s convinced anyone of anything except that SteveH is both thick and malevolent.
However if Jim wants to ban him, I wouldn’t complain.
modernity's ghost said,
February 5, 2012 at 4:45 pm
Rosie,
I am not talking about banning, but if, hypothetically, a known BNPer or neo-Nazi were to post on Shiraz Socilaist then I would expect that posters here would give him a hard time, and rightly so.
Equally, when I see SteveH express his barely concealed loathing for Jews then I expect people to take him up on his racism.
And yes, racists like SteveH are illogical.
That’s how you spot them, their irrational arguments, monomania and obsessions, their targets can be Jews, the Irish, Roma or afro-caribbean, etc, but their method of attack is consistent: obsessive, contradictory and returning to the same themes.
We shouldn’t let them go unchallenged.
Rosie said,
February 5, 2012 at 4:54 pm
@Modernity February 5, 2012 at 4:45 pm ·
Jim does give SteveH a hard time, and so do some of the others who comment round here. I think he’s such a self-evident little shit myself that I don’t think he deserves the compliment of rational opposition, as Jane Austen said of another self-evident little shit*. As for showing him up – he shows himself up.
*Robert Ferrars in Sense and Sensibility
Clive said,
February 5, 2012 at 5:32 pm
Damon, obviously building links between Egyptians and Israelis is difficult. This fact was the starting point for this conversation. It is also difficult building links between British and Egyptian workers, or indeed British and French. (The lack of real efforts at European workers’ unity is shocking).
The point is that it is *needed*, and simply rehearsing how hard it is isn’t much help to anybody.
The fact of a mass Israeli protest movement is, potentially, a ‘way in’ to arguing for such links in the Arab world. Or – suppose there was no such movement: the argument would be even harder.
SteveH said,
February 5, 2012 at 7:25 pm
Thanks Rosie. I am not that little by the way. What do you have against small people anyway? Quite a fascistic statement (little shit) if you think about it. You are little therefore I am big. There is always the whiff of social Darwinism about some of the contributors to this site. ChuChuTrain calling everyone who disagrees with him a retard etc. In another life you lot would sit very well at the Daily Mail – maybe you are their anti matter?
I should remind readers that Modernity’s first response to the Arab spring was to warn us of the dangers of Islamism and he was calling the left for its ‘uncritical’ support of the Arab spring!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Now he seems to be an uncritical supporter and a witchfinder of anyone who is critical!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Basically his will bends to whatever is in the interests of the US and British ruling class and Zionism. In this at least he is very consistent.
Abu, you are indeed a moutjpiece for Zionism. I have been reading with interest some of your contributions on the Web. For example your discussions with fellow Zionists about how poverty and oppression in Gaza are overplayed. All quite sickening. Like rich people at a banquet discussing how the poor are not so badly off.
I am delighted to be on the other side. If that puts me in the far right camp, I have no problem with that. Just as long as I sit on the opposite side of the fence to the war mongering Shiraz posse.
I have no idea if the Zionist ‘network’ gives you money, I am sure this sort of thing happens. I am sure all sides play this game. I would imagine though that the ‘network’ have bigger fish to fry and you lot just happen to be a unpaid lackeys of the ‘network’.
“Non-compromise on the total rejection of Israel. I believe the total rejection of Zionism in Palestine should be in the platform and the plan of every movement. I think all these attempts to reconcile Palestine and Israel, and “let’s live together as Israelis and Palestinians in two separate states” – all that is going to be at the expense of the lives and the cause of the Palestinians. And for me, any movement that does not reject – categorically – Zionism, is akin to a movement against apartheid South Africa that basically wants a reconciliation with apartheid, and there should be no doubt about that part. You know, we should insist on that part.”
Angry Arab.
modernity's ghost said,
February 5, 2012 at 8:21 pm
It is always a pity when you have to remind illiterate racists, like SteveH, what you did or didn’t say.
Contrary to his assertion:
“I should remind readers that Modernity’s first response to the Arab spring was to warn us of the dangers of Islamism …”
No, I didn’t.
I don’t comment on Islamism, it is not an issue for me.
What I do comment on is, anti-Jewish racism and how SteveH articulates.
He has serious hangups concerning Jews, as his previous comments show.
He couldn’t give a damn about the Middle East, he knows next to nothing about it..
If you asked how countries there are in the region and their population, without the aid of the Internet he wouldn’t know.
SteveH talks the typical nonsense that you hear from racists, premade arguments, no engagement with facts and a serious disregard the contrary evidence.
Some people attack Blacks, the Irish, Muslims, SteveH does it with Jews.
Abu Faris said,
February 6, 2012 at 12:22 am
Abu, you are indeed a moutjpiece for Zionism. I have been reading with interest some of your contributions on the Web. For example your discussions with fellow Zionists about how poverty and oppression in Gaza are overplayed.
Fascinating.
I wonder if you could point out where I “discussed” with “fellow Zionists… how poverty and oppression in Gaza are overplayed.”
A simply link would do.
SteveH said,
February 5, 2012 at 8:35 pm
No you did Modernity, you warned about the dangers of the Muslim Brotherhood coming to power in Egypt. Your first response to the Arab spring was pretty much the same as the US, British ruling class and Zionists, total alarm!
Basically whichever way the US, British ruling class and Zionists bend you fellow.
In fact you finally woke up to the power of the Arab srping when Libya was under threat!
And now you act as witchfinder in chief to anyone who posts any critical comments on the Arab spring.
Your position can change 180 degrees but the method you employ is always consistent.
“If you asked how countries there are in the region and their population, without the aid of the Internet he wouldn’t know.”
I don’t quite understand this gibberish but…..Modernity, we are not born with knowledge. It must be acquired by looking things up.
Here is how the process works – You don’t know something> you look it up and hey presto >you know something.
So to simplyfy -
Don’t know>look up>know.
modernity's ghost said,
February 5, 2012 at 9:04 pm
This ably illustrates the futility of arguing with thick racists, like SteveH.
Nothing gets through.
SteveH holds entrenched views concerning Israel and Jews, yet never looked up the region or basic facts about it.
Its a bit like someone waxing lyrical on rugby league, yet never having seen a match.
SteveH, like most bigots, can’t think for himself, suck up anti-Jewish propaganda from dodgy web sites and repeats it verbatim.
Why’s that a problem?
Run-of-the-mill racists can be won around, or at the very least shut up, with facts concerning ethnic minorities, blacks, the Irish, the Roma, Muslims, etc, If you try long and hard enough.
But that approach that doesn’t work with the obstinate anti-Jewish racists, like SteveH.
In their case, antisemitism for them is not an incidental belief rather an overarching ideology, which seeks to explain the world with reference to “Jewish conspiracies”, “Jewish power”, etc etc whatever euphemism they currently use.
Getting through that ideology of antisemitism is sometimes
next to impossible. Its exponents often have serious personality problems, as evidenced by SteveH’s outbursts, and are not rational in this area, so can’t be won over by reason, or shut up.
They repeat their racist nonsense no matter what you argue.
That’s why it’s a problem.
Monsuer Jelly est Formidable said,
February 6, 2012 at 4:06 am
yes. Modernity’s first response to unfolding events in arab werld was as steeveHaitch says.
damon said,
February 5, 2012 at 9:13 pm
Well Clive, if you think there can be worthwhile contact between a mass of Israelis and Egyptians then OK. I can’t see it myself.
I just spent a sorry hour reading a thread on Harrry’s Place about Israel/Palestine where a former IDF soldier wrote about having some regrets about what he had been involved in. Some of the below the line commentators were were calling for a war to drive the Palestinians out of the West Bank.
http://hurryupharry.org/2012/02/04/israel-palestine/
My simple post, saying that I thought it was a good and welcome OP by the IDF guy was deleted ….. because I’m such a troll apparently.
In fact (the odious) Abu Faris has been complaining over there that I’ve ”trolled” this thread too. Have I?
Just by raising a few points about the relevance of anti-semitism in Egypt right now, and asking about the young internet activists who were so prominent in Cairo a year ago. Like where are they in all this?
Have a read on that HP thread. The early comments by the guys called ”Josh Scholar” and ”Fabian ben Israel”.
I’m deleted for saying ”interesting OP” – but no one bats an eyelid about calls for war and ethnic cleansing. That’s what it’s like on that site.
Mild criticism of Israel or its supporters gets the full ”rottweiler treatment”, whilst religious and nationalist extremists are tolerated.
The thing is to ask, how representive of Israelis are guys like those, because I can’t see many Egyptians wanting to have anything to do with that kind.
Abu Faris said,
February 6, 2012 at 2:23 am
Damon lasted all of five minutes on HP before he revealed himself to be a troll with an interesting side-line in Anti-Semitism denial.
And the assertion that he was deleted for writing “interesting OP” is an outright lie.
damon said,
February 6, 2012 at 10:39 am
Absolute rot Abu Faris On the thread titled ”Israel? Palestine?” by the former IDF soldier, all I said was that I agreed with someone who said it was a welcome interesting OP. I didn’t say any more, as I know what your pathetic little mate Alec is like, but he deleted it anyway.
It’s you who’s trolled this thread by jumping up and down like a spoilt kid because someone said something you don’t like.
As for accusations of anti-Semitism from Harry’s Place …. they have as much credibility as the boy who cried wolf. They use it as a dishonest slur against ANYONE who is critical of their project. The are the ”Ultras” of the Israeli right wing. I get slated and deleted, but no one says a word about someone calling for a war to drive the Palestinians out of the West Bank like happened on that thread (see 4 February 2012, 7:11 am) where the guy says that the West Bank needs a Jewish majority for there to be peace.
And you (you coward) said hardly a thing on that thread, which is totally your style. I have Jews in my family btw, I support a two state solution and think Israel has a right to be left in peace. But loathing Netanyahu and people like the Israeli spokesman Mark Regev and the Hebron settlers does not make me anti-Semitic.
Regev was born in Australia and chose to get involved in war with Arabs in the Middle Eeast. On HP, saying that makes a person ”anti-Semitic” – which is a joke IMO. But what it really is, is that they just (and you) throw the ”anti-Semite” slur at the drop of a hat, as a (disgraceful) tactic.
If you insist that I was deleted on that I/P thread for saying more that ”Good OP – I completely agree” – then you’re a liar too….which wouldn’t surprise me at all.
SteveH said,
February 5, 2012 at 9:31 pm
That was the most hilarious post I have ever read Modernity. Truely amazing. The way your logic works is spectacular. A masterclass. I am copying that response and putting it on my wall. Quite incredible.
That is the very definition of refusing the compliment of rational opposition. Rosie will be proud! Jane Austen will be smiling in her grave!
skidmarx said,
February 5, 2012 at 10:27 pm
I’m sure if you lose this copy , you could just check out any other comments he makes, as they all seem to come from the same template.
Abu Faris said,
February 5, 2012 at 11:43 pm
So this is where the Red-Brown Strasserist Shitstain has been hiding? He has not been missed.
Abu Faris said,
February 6, 2012 at 12:49 am
skidmarx
Run past us again why you no longer post on HP?
modernity's ghost said,
February 6, 2012 at 1:06 am
I doubt that Skidmarx will see any problem with SteveH’s comments here:
http://shirazsocialist.wordpress.com/2012/01/21/royal-coup-de-grace/
Not that SteveH or Skidmarx would probably have any problem with Press TV’s racism either.
Abu Faris said,
February 6, 2012 at 1:47 am
All we need now is that confabulating cheer-leader of Assad, Flying Fucknuts and the gang of Red-Brown Strasserist nutters would truly all be here.
Abu Faris said,
February 6, 2012 at 2:28 am
“Having just returned from Tahrir Square, I can understand some, only some, of what Abu Faris has written.”
Having now re-read the OP a number of times, I have concluded that the principle reason for Cde Pete’s lack of comprehension is that he did not – in point of fact – really read anything I had written.
Abu Faris said,
February 6, 2012 at 6:26 am
I really do think you have some very erudite and intelligent posters on this site. Well done.
Abu Faris said,
February 6, 2012 at 8:28 am
Hey, Skidmarx – it’s called sarcasm – Strasserist, genocide denying filth.
Abu Faris said,
February 6, 2012 at 11:04 am
This site is infested with people with some very serious issue. I have other things to do.
Abu Faris said,
February 6, 2012 at 1:52 pm
If you are sure people here are not interested in your persistent grievance mongering, Damon, then why are you continuing?
Abu Faris said,
February 6, 2012 at 1:56 pm
Damon once more derails a thread on a blog in order to discuss burning questions about himself… his favourite (indeed almost only) topic.
sackcloth and ashes said,
February 6, 2012 at 1:58 pm
Not surprised to see shitstain tell another blatant lie.
His own record of supporting Rwanda genocide denial is on Shiraz Socialist, as seen here:
http://shirazsocialist.wordpress.com/2010/07/13/nocide-denial-here-we-go-again/
skidmarx said,
February 6, 2012 at 2:59 pm
Ah the homicidal scab is back! And still with the same lie.
sackcloth and ashes said,
February 6, 2012 at 4:03 pm
shitstain’s ability to lie even in the face of the facts would be pitiable if he wasn’t such an Irvingite scumbag. He specifically states that ‘only 100,000′ were killed by the Hutu power regime, and that anyone who argues otherwise is an RPF propagandist. And yet he still tries to claim he’s not a genocide-denying piece of filth.
Abu Faris said,
February 6, 2012 at 4:08 pm
Oh dear, StrasseristStain, I feel S&A may well now reproduce your exact words. Words that seem to have convinced a wide number of people across a wide range of political perspectives, that you are, indeed, a genocide denying, Strasserist, red-brown scumbag.
skidmarx said,
February 6, 2012 at 4:34 pm
No ,you sickbag and a couple of other idiots from HP think it’s a useful lie to stalk me with, but none of you actually believe it, or you really are stupid beyond belief.
Your hosts here might eventually tire of repeatedly hosting such an obviously libellous accusation, and I don’t think there’s anyone other than you wingnuts who think it’s worth dragging out again. If you want to forego any discussion of the issue at hand and ritually humiliate yourself, the people who run this site might see that it just makes them look used and pointless, but that’s their look-out.
Abu Faris said,
February 6, 2012 at 4:05 pm
Damon, we all feel for your loss.
Now, feck off.
Abu Faris said,
February 6, 2012 at 4:49 pm
Skiddie gets all tired and emotional over genocide denial… shocker.
Well, stop doing it then, you red-brown Strasserist filth.
Simples.
Abu Faris said,
February 6, 2012 at 4:10 pm
So much for 76 (and rising) Egyptian dead. Shitstain, Damon the pocket contrarian and the gang of word-salad spewing alcoholics want to play silly buggers.
Tant pis, mes enrages.
skidmarx said,
February 7, 2012 at 4:08 pm
Says the man handing out most the abuse. Quelle horreur.
Abu Faris said,
February 6, 2012 at 10:31 pm
Again, Damon – you are obsessing over stuff in which only you are remotely interested. Get over yourself.
Abu Faris said,
February 7, 2012 at 3:08 pm
Nuanced, you? Ahahahahahahahahaha!
I love the comment at the end. What are you going to do, Damon? Tell ‘em?
Fuck off, creepy troll.
damon said,
February 7, 2012 at 6:19 pm
Now hopefully that aggro is at an end, this is the kind of thing I was talking about in my first post when I talked about ”the middle class students”.
The rather attractive Gigi Ibrahim, who I saw a copuple of times on Newsnight, has fallen in with the SWP it looks like. Which is a terrible shame, but she still has plenty of interesting things to say, and I have no doubt about her passion for her country’s future.
If Faris hadn’t been such a dick, it would have been interesting to hear some real opinions about this side of things too.
Like how representitive that group is on the ground, or whether they are just too few and middle class to make any real difference.
Abu Faris said,
February 8, 2012 at 2:27 pm
Fuck off Damon, you RCP reject.
Abu Faris said,
February 10, 2012 at 5:27 am
Damon,
You have now been desperately attempting for nearly a week to get someone, somewhere to discuss your obsessions with Egyptian bloggers.
Get a life, lad.
damon said,
March 20, 2012 at 1:31 pm
That shows what a twat Abu Faris is.
”My obsession” with the Egptian bloggers is about as much as my ”obsession” would be about trades unionists or any leading parts of the opposition movement. Liberal intelectuals … or whoever.
The bloggers were said to be a leading part of the movement in the beginning. I was just asking what were they up to now.
So why all the shit from Faris? Was it not legitimate to even ask?
The same as you might about opposition forces anywhere within the (so called) Arab Spring countries. I’m no expert. I don’t live there.
It was just a bit of an idle question on an internet forum.
The guy’s an obnoxious idiot.
He chose to make it a personal thing for some reason.
What a tosser.
Abu Faris said,
April 6, 2012 at 8:15 pm
Yawn
Monsuer Jelly est Formidable said,
April 7, 2012 at 2:00 pm
two months later he yawns. what? are yu a sloth you demented fuckpig?