The Pope in Brum: defiling human decency…and Newman’s memory

Newman (left): ”Conscience first, Pope afterwards.”
Yesterday I joined the anti-Pope protesters at Cofton Park, Birmingham. I last visited this place about thirty years ago when us Longbridge shop stewards put it to rather better use.
The anti-Pope protest was very, very tiny: little more than a dozen of us; but then( as we asked the left-footers in the course of our generally good-humoured exchanges), how many did Jesus start out with?. To be honest, I hadn’t intended to stay very long, but because we were so few in number I felt obliged to stick around. I’m glad I did. Not since the miners’ strike have I felt so comfortable on a demo: so sure I was on the right side and glad – proud – to be there. Our emphasis was on human rights – especially those of women, gays, lesbians and transgender people. We also raised the issue of the Church’s cover-up of child abuse, and the effective genocide in Africa caused by the Church’s lies about condoms. We said, and chanted, nothing that could possibly be interpreted as bigoted anti-Catholicism. We made the point that a pastoral visit (as in 1982) would be unobjectionable. But a “state” visit, subsidised by British workers at a time of cuts, is outrageous.
I knew I was on the right side here. This was despite (or maybe because of ) the fact that no-one else from the organised “left” was there. ‘Shiraz’ has already given ample coverage to the extent to which the SWP/Respect -influenced “left” has sold the pass to organised religion, betraying and misrepresenting at least one hundred and sixty years of Marxist opposition to religious superstition.
From Cofton Park, the old bigot went on to Birmingham Oratory to beatify Cardinal Newman. Newman is on record as rejecting sainthood in advance, and also being (shall we say) somewhat non-committal on the question of papal infalibility: “I shall drink – to the Pope, if you please, – still, to Conscience first, and to the Pope afterwards”, he said.
If not quite the liberal figure that some would wish to paint him, there can be little doubt that Newman would have hated the present Pope and the entire beatification business.
In fact, there is a delicious postscript to Newman’s story. He was virtually “married” to the Reverend Father Ambrose St. John (1815 – 24 May 1875) and when his own time came, insisted upon being buried with him. Whether the two were actually what we’d today call “gay” in a physical sense, cannot of course, be known. What is beyond doubt is that the two loved each other, and that Newman wished to be buried with his friend/companion – which he was.
But here’s a strange thing: when the whole “beatification” business started back in 2008, the left-footers decided to “transfer” Newman’s remains away from the grave he shared with Ambrose in Rednal, Birmingham. Well, they opened the grave and found…nothing. No corpse, no bones: nothing.
According to the official pamphlet I was given at the Cofton Park gig, the explanation for this is that “the coffin was wooden and the burial took place at a damp site.”
But that is not the true explanation; this is:
“On a wet October day in 2008, an assortment of priests and grave-diggers arrived at the cemetery in Rednal, armed with shovels and a mechanical digger. They planned to transfer Newman’s remains to a tomb back at his church in Birmingham. Nothing was found except the brass name-plate and a few bits of rotten wood. A solution to the mystery was discovered in the archives of the Birmingham Post. A journalist at the burial reported that, on Newman’s orders, the grave was filled with compost to hasten decomposition.”
From beyond the grave, we can hear The Venerable John Henry Newman laughing at Ratzinger.
Oscar Lomax said,
September 20, 2010 at 12:16 am
the vatican is a nest of devils.
more concerned with their finances than justice
http://uk.reuters.com/article/idUKTRE68D2MF20100914
Ps. keep up the good work Jimbo.
resistor said,
September 20, 2010 at 9:16 am
‘The anti-Pope protest was very, very tiny: little more than a dozen of us’
‘no-one else from the organised “left” was there.’
http://datacide.c8.com/the-radical-left-in-the-british-general-elections/
‘Alliance For Workers Liberty candidate Jill Mountford came last in Camberwell and Peckham with just 75 votes (Turnout: 46,659), clearly beaten by two other “far left” candidates from the WRP and the SLP (211 and 184 votes respectively).’
Ever get the feeling you’re a sad lonely loser Jim?
martin ohr said,
September 20, 2010 at 9:37 am
Jim,
Have you seen the Galloways column?http://blogs.dailyrecord.co.uk/georgegalloway/2010/09/pope-bashers-are-throwback-to.html?utm_source=feedburner&utm_medium=feed&utm_campaign=Feed%3A+TheDailyRecord%2FGeorgeGalloway+%28The+Daily+Record+-+George+Galloway%29
it’s a classic.
martin ohr said,
September 20, 2010 at 9:44 am
Jim, well done for going. It seems that the attack on reason grows as every day passes.
It must stick in the throat of the so-called socialists who back the pope and other religious nut-jobs to hear the words of the internationale:
“…for reason in revolt now thunders
and at last ends the age of cant
away with all your superstitions
servile masses arise, arise…”
here’s my favourite version http://folk.ntnu.no/makarov/temporary_url_20070929kldcg/internationale-yi.mp3
btw: Liammacauid- what a f.cking tosser.
stroppybird said,
September 20, 2010 at 10:59 am
Apparently all protestors about the Pope are middle class Guardian liberals !!
Arghhh.
resistor said,
September 20, 2010 at 11:37 am
But not all middle class Guardian liberals protested against the Pope.
The protesters were, in contrast to the worshippers, predominantly white, middle class and male. The ‘servile masses’ were at Mass.
martin ohr said,
September 20, 2010 at 11:51 am
stroppybird: “Apparently all protestors about the Pope are middle class Guardian liberals !!”
I don’t know which is worse being denounced as a intollerant nazi by the Pope, the daily mail or the left blogerati.
pot, kettle etc.
Matt said,
September 20, 2010 at 11:52 am
Galloway’s piece is just too easy to take apart: you can’t criticise the Catholic Church for being anti-gay and covering up child abuse because all religions are like that? I don’t think the Vatican are going to be calling him for PR advice any time soon. And of course, he doesn’t even mention the Pope’s view on women priests or contraception.
martin ohr said,
September 20, 2010 at 12:39 pm
” I don’t think the Vatican are going to be calling him for PR advice any time soon”
indeed the pope is a much better advocate than galloway. At least he gives the impression of living within his own rules and, despite being an ex-nazi, seems to at least have some scruples compared to the cigar-chomping philandering crooked hypocrite.
Invictus_88 said,
September 20, 2010 at 2:46 pm
“Newman is on record as rejecting sainthood in advance…”
…where?
Laban said,
September 20, 2010 at 3:55 pm
Did you actually have a memory of Cardinal Newman to be defiled ?
An interesting chap but hardly an icon for a lefty agitator. Bet you knew zilch until Il Papa arrived.
I too was a shop steward (NUR) in my time, and a trades unionist for 30 years.
Why don’t you write something about the disaster that was the Longbridge saga? I’ve written the linked bit, plus Longbridge II, Longbridge III, Cadbury, and a depressed overview of the whole industrial shambles that is “Globalisation In One Country”.
While it is a fine thing for Brum that Newman is now The Blessed, I don’t think it’s as important to the city as the destruction of the last 30 years. Why don’t you write about it?
jim denham said,
September 20, 2010 at 5:15 pm
Invictucus: I can’t find Newman’s exact words, but here’s what his (Catholic) biographer says:
“Newman was aware that people thought him saintly, and he suspected the Church might attempt to make him an official saint,” says Cornwell. “In the time-honoured tradition of most figures who make it to sainthood, Newman assured his contemporaries, and posterity, that he was no saint; his reason, that he was a ‘literary’ man. It is likely that the request that his grave be filled with compost was [so] there would be no relics left to venerate. As it happens, Newman’s beatification was sanctioned with some difficulties, after half a century [of campaigning on his behalf] and despite an inflation in saint-making during the long reign of Pope John Paul II.”
jim denham said,
September 20, 2010 at 5:52 pm
Hi Strops:
The most annoying thing about the “middle class Guardian-readers” jibe that the likes of Nooman and Restistwat are now directing against atheists, is that the ‘Graun’ is in fact a leading conduit of pro-religious propaganda, from the likes of “Maddie” Bunting, Karen (Gawdhelpus) Armstrong, Terry -I’m-A-Marxist-Honest-Eagleton, Seamas “Up The Taliban” Milne, and their most recent God-botherer, Pankaj Mishra.
Of all the Graun’s columnists, only Polly Toynbee makes the case for atheism – and one suspects that she’s only allowed to do so because she’s such a senior columnist and has something approachhing a free hand.
resistor said,
September 20, 2010 at 6:07 pm
I see that Jim has failed to respond to my post exposing Tatchell as a liar.
Tatchell claimed his words were taken out of context – I quoted the entire letter. not a word was missing or out of place.
Tatchell claimed he was defending an academic publication. In fact it was a collection of articles from a pro-paedophilia magazine – written by paedophiles and defending paedophilia.
It’s time that Denham and the AWL stopped making excuses for Tatchell.
Oscar Lomax said,
September 20, 2010 at 10:48 pm
Stupid abuse.
Oscar Lomax said,
September 20, 2010 at 11:09 pm
galloway — a Stupid fucking arsehole
http://blogs.dailyrecord.co.uk/georgegalloway/2010/09/pope-bashers-are-throwback-to.html?utm_source=feedburner&utm_medium=feed&utm_campaign=Feed%3A+TheDailyRecord%2FGeorgeGalloway+%28The+Daily+Record+-+George+
“[B]eing a Catholic in Britain was a bit like being a Jew in Occupied Europe during the war.”
Galloway confers on himself the status of Holocaust survivor.
Oscar Lomax said,
September 20, 2010 at 11:11 pm
Repellent abuse.
tc said,
September 20, 2010 at 11:23 pm
“stroppybird said,
September 20, 2010 at 10:59 am
Apparently all protestors about the Pope are middle class Guardian liberals !!
Arghhh.”
This almost certainly true, I bet 90% of them at least are middle class liberals.
Yet the Pope is also quite a fan of the big society, whose proponents are upper-class Eton types, and whose supporters are also so. Likewise the Catholic Church is one of the richest organizations in the world and through it, middle class members indoctrinate poor starving people, across the world (nobody tell me otherwise, my middle class family int he third world does exactly this through “charity”).
Conclusion being – nearly everyone actively involved in politics is middle class (not sure baout white – does that bit matter?), and spend their whole time calling each other middle class, as if this were an insult.
When in reality the real conclusion is that the masses never have and never will lead themselves, and always will be led by some or other faction of the educated classes.
Now let us hope that this be the enlightened faction, and not the stone age, book-burning, anti-contraception faction.
Merseymike said,
September 20, 2010 at 11:31 pm
About time someone spoke the truth about this evil man and his corrupt and filthy organisation. Well said.
maxdunbar said,
September 21, 2010 at 5:15 am
‘The protesters were, in contrast to the worshippers, predominantly white, middle class and male. The ‘servile masses’ were at Mass.’
Well, there are Catholics who were against this visit:
http://www.protest-the-pope.org.uk/2010/08/silence-of-catholics-loudest-protest-in-scotland/
The attitude of Resistor and others that working class people and migrants need religion to fill their sad and empty lives simply reveals their condescension and contempt for working class people and migrants.
Oscar Lomax said,
September 21, 2010 at 9:09 am
damn those OK magazine people — they have the commodity angle of this shit well sewn-up. there is no way on earth that i can break into the market when they have such penetration.
http://www.ok.co.uk/celebnews/view/26574/Chantelle-OK-Exclusive-I-can-t-MAKE-Preston-love-me-/
“As Chantelle waits to find out Preston’s feelings she chats to OK! Magazine about her feelings…”
Oscar Lomax said,
September 21, 2010 at 9:30 am
Stupid abuse.
resistor said,
September 21, 2010 at 10:59 am
The attitude of Max Dunbar and others that ‘working class people and migrants need religion to fill their sad and empty lives’ simply reveals their condescension and contempt for working class people and migrants.
You condemned yourself out of your own mouth.
ps Why the silence over Tatchell and his lies?
Oscar Lomax said,
September 21, 2010 at 12:39 pm
Stupid abuse.
Oscar Lomax said,
September 21, 2010 at 1:07 pm
nest of vipers and criminals
http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2010/sep/21/vatican-bank-chief-investigated-laundering
Guy Debord's Underpants said,
September 21, 2010 at 1:42 pm
reshitsstor le nazi a clairement un problème avec compréhension de l’anglais.
http://shirazsocialist.wordpress.com/2010/09/18/letters-to-the-graun-the-catholic-church-and-nazism/#comment-32615
resistor said,
September 21, 2010 at 2:05 pm
Jim, you haven’t noticed that I have posted a reply to that which exposed
1. Tatchell’s lies and evasions.
2. The true nature of the book he was promoting i.e. one written by paedophiles, for paedophiles and excusing paedophilia.
Can I say it wasn’t a pleasant task having to research people like the editor of the book, Joseph Geraci. Geraci has a business selling books of photographs of young boys by mail order from the paedophile haven of Amsterdam. He also writes novels exploring his fantasies of sex with young boys, including ‘deaf-mutes’ in Morocco.
Tatchell made great claims for the ‘academic’ nature of the book he was defending, so he can’t claim ignorance of the background of such as Geraci.
Now, you can’t claim such ignorance either. So why does the AWL and Jim Denham continue to defend Tatchell’s promotion of books excusing paedophilia?
jim denham said,
September 21, 2010 at 2:55 pm
Resistwat: it’s you who is the liar.
Unlike you God-botherers, Tatchell has *never* engaged in child abuse, or attempted to cover it up.
The statement from him I’ve reproduced already (see under ‘The Pope and Nazism’, Sept 19) makes his opposition to all forms of child abuse clear.
I reproduce it again for ease of reference:
I contacted Peter Tatchell about the Guardian letter “resistor” quoted above.
Tatchell told me that quotes cited by “resistor” and other people determined to discredit him are selective and
partial. Many of his words, he says, are used out of context.
His Guardian letter of 1997 was edited by the newspaper without his
knowledge or consent. Hence some misunderstanding.
Tatchell offers a different explanation, which I am posting below. I
hope readers might engage with what he is actually saying. It is not necessary to agree with Tatchell on the age of consent and related issues (on balance, I don’t), to recognise that he is *unequivocally* opposed to all forms of child abuse: any attempt to suggest otherwise would have to be a filthy lie.
Peter Tatchell writes:
The idea that I advocate paedophilia is laughable, sick, untrue and defamatory.
Unlike many Catholic clergy, I have never abused anyone. Unlike the
Pope, I have never failed to report abusers or covered up their
crimes. I do not support sex with children. Full stop.
Dares to Speak was an academic book published in 1997, authored by
professors, anthropologists, psychologists, a Dutch senator and a
former editor of a Catholic newspaper. It questioned ages of consent
and whether all sex between children and adults is necessarily
harmful.
I do not condone adults having sex with children. My Guardian letter
about this book was in defence of free speech and open debate about
the issue, in opposition to those who said that the book and the
debate it generated should not happen and should be closed down. I was
against calls for censorship. Even if Dares to Speak is entirely
wrong, in a free society its authors have a right to be published and
heard.
My Guardian letter cited examples of Papuan tribes and some of my
friends who had sex with adults while they were still children, but
who do not feel they were harmed. I was not endorsing their viewpoint
but merely stating that they had a different perspective from the
mainstream one about inter-generational sex. They have every right for
their perspective to be heard. If they say they were not harmed, we
should respect that (while also recognising that many people are
harmed by early sexual experiences).
My Guardian letter did say very clearly that paedophilia is
“impossible” to condone – meaning that I don’t condone it.
Here’s an example of what I wrote in the Irish Independent two years ago:
Irish Independent – 10 March 2008
http://www.independent.ie/opinion/analysis/lowering-the-unrealistic-age-of-consent-will-help-teens-1312148.html
“The time has come for a calm, rational debate about the age of
consent. It should be premised on four aims. First, protecting young
people against sex abuse. Second, empowering them to make wise,
responsible sexual choices. Third, removing the legal obstacles to
earlier, more effective sex education. Fourth, ensuring better
contraception and condom provision to prevent unwanted pregnancies and
abortions and to cut the spread of sexual infections like HIV.”
You can see that I made protecting young people against sex abuse my
first priority.
I have said similar things in many other articles and interviews.
See this Guardian article, published in September last year:
http://www.petertatchell.net/age%20of%20consent/dontcriminaliseyoungsex.html
It is true that I support reducing the legal consent age to 14. But I
support 14 in order to end the criminalisation of the many young
people who have sexual contact with each other from this age onwards.
More than half of all British teenagers have their first sexual
experience (not necessarily full intercourse) at around the age of 14.
I do not advocate them having sex at this early age. It is best if
they wait. But I don’t think that consenting 14 years olds should be
dragged to court and threatened with prison. I certainly do not
endorse adults having sex with young people aged 14.
My critics may disagree with me on the age of consent, but I have
advocated a clear ethical stance and moral framework, which stresses
sex with mutual consent, respect and fulfilment. My arguments and
articles are not about abusing young people but protecting them from
unwarranted criminalisation.
That’s my motive.
I hope this clarifies and reassures you.
Best wishes, Peter Tatchell
I personally think his letter to the ‘Guardian’ (even accepting it was edited without his knowledge) was unwise and in places unclear. It contained some opinions I would not agree with. I do not speak for the AWL on this matter, but have every reason to believe that they would take the same view. However, to suggest that Tatchell, in that letter or anywhere else, excuses or in any way justifies paedophilia is a filthy lie, and yet anotherb example of Resistwat’s favourite tactic when faced with a political position he cannot rationally defend: shouting “over there!” A classic Stalinist technique.
Harry Tuttle said,
September 21, 2010 at 9:42 pm
Jim Denham wrote:
That’s what trolls do. Every time you catch him out in a lie or demolish his argument, he changes the subject. He’ll call you a racist and then turn around and link to a far-right racist site to prove his point (as he did here). He’s only interested in harassing you.
Ignore him and he’ll go away. Or better yet, replace all his posts with the lyrics to Hatikva.
Harry Tuttle said,
September 21, 2010 at 9:44 pm
Corrected link: http://shirazsocialist.wordpress.com/2010/07/13/nocide-denial-here-we-go-again/
resistor said,
September 21, 2010 at 5:22 pm
‘Tatchell told me that quotes cited by “resistor” and other people determined to discredit him are selective and partial. Many of his words, he says, are used out of context’
You and he know this not to be true. I posted the whole letter. Tatchell has never published any other version.
‘However, to suggest that Tatchell, in that letter or anywhere else, excuses or in any way justifies paedophilia is a filthy lie.’
So what deos Tatchell mean by,
‘Gay Men’s Press has published a book, Dares To Speak, which challenges the assumption that all sex involving children and adults is abusive. I think it is courageous.’
or
‘they document examples of societies where consenting inter-generational sex is considered normal, beneficial and enjoyable by old and young alike’
or
‘The positive nature of some child-adult sexual relationships is not confined to non-Western cultures. Several of my friends – gay and straight, male and female – had sex with adults from the ages of nine to 13. None feel they were abused. All say it was their conscious choice and gave them great joy.’
Not exactly condemning paedophilia is it Jim?
As for Tatchell’s claim that ‘Dares to Speak was an academic book’ – it is nothing of the sort. No university press would touch it with a bargepole. Tatchell must know that the book was produced by paedophiles with the aim of making paedophilia acceptable not in Papua New Guinea but in Amsterdam.
Does Denham accept Tatchell’s excuses for this book?
Guy Debord's Underpants said,
September 21, 2010 at 7:34 pm
Haut est en bas. Nord Sud. La vie est la mort. Ce spectacle d’horreur, c’est comme grotesques de Todd Browning. Babouins se branle dans une tasse. Bienvenue à Salo, la maison de ReSSistor.
Guy Debord's Underpants said,
September 22, 2010 at 6:13 am
Chie reSSistor une fois de plus dans ses keks et frottis à travers ce site pathétique. Le clergé est désormais innocent de violon Kiddy – c’était un célèbre militant des droits humain de ce qu’il fait. L’énormité éhonté des calomnies!
shane said,
September 22, 2010 at 2:34 pm
http://lxoa.wordpress.com/2010/09/21/cardinal-newman/
SteveH said,
September 22, 2010 at 4:54 pm
“We said, and chanted, nothing that could possibly be interpreted as bigoted anti-Catholicism. ”
You decided to leave that for this article and your website.
Resistor has a point, you are very very critical of every single action the Catholic church has taken in regard to paedophilia (The Daily Mail would be proud!) but you fail to apply those rigourous standards to Tatchell.
And why do you persist with the utter stupidity of lines such as the effective genocide in Africa caused by the Church’s lies about condoms. Call youself a fucking Marxist, please spare me the jokes!!
On who is protesting the the Pope, I agree that calling them Guardian readers is bullshit, but you often use that term of abuse also and for the exact same dishonest reasons. Mr Denham there is an old parable about the casting of stones that you would do well to read.
tc said,
September 22, 2010 at 5:06 pm
“Resistor has a point, you are very very critical of every single action the Catholic church has taken in regard to paedophilia (The Daily Mail would be proud!) but you fail to apply those rigourous standards to Tatchell.”
Ironic you mention the Daily Mail, seeing as they viciously attacked Stephen Fry for his moderate criticisms of the Pope’s visit, and were decidedly defensive of Benedict and opposed to his critics.
SteveH said,
September 22, 2010 at 5:51 pm
TC
Well I have no problem with speaking out against the Pope but your comment has nothing to do with the point I made now does it. So there was no irony at all.
resistor said,
September 23, 2010 at 11:23 am
I see Denham has given up trying to defend Tatchell. Good.
As for the protesters being Guardian readers, many of them couldn’t spell. They demonstrated their maturity – and sensitivity towards ordinary catholics – by carrying at least two large banners proclaiming ‘Fuck The Pope’. I’m sure that went down well on the Shankill Road.
I am not a fan of Spiked but sometimes they have a point.
http://www.spiked-online.com/index.php/site/article/9598/
‘There was a delicious irony at the heart of the anti-pope demo in central London on Saturday: the protesters had clearly got so carried away with smugly expressing their intellectual superiority over the faithful hordes – ‘RELIGION IS STUPID’, said one particularly popular placard – that they forgot to proofread their own intellectual outpourings.
The spelling was atrocious. ‘Abstinance [sic] makes the church grow fondlers’, said one huge banner, held aloft by gays dressed as cardinals. ‘Science flies you to the moon – relgion [sic] flies you into buildings’, said another. A lone woman elicited cheers for waving a homemade placard that said ‘Fuck off back to the Spanish Inquisition in the fourteenth century’. Now, the f-word I don’t mind – but a Spanish Inquisition in the fourteenth century? If you’re going to bandy around the word ‘STUPID’ , then at least read a history book or two first, or get one of those bright kids from Are You Smarter Than A 10-Year-Old? to spellcheck your propaganda.’
and
‘Some even waved placards saying ‘STOP STONING’ and ‘Religion flies planes into buildings’, which, correct me if I’m wrong, are problems that are associated with the Islamic faith rather than the Catholic one. But who cares. Got a grievance? Pin it on the pope.’
Steve said,
September 23, 2010 at 12:01 pm
Brilliant resistor!! Sounds like the dregs came out in force!!
Steve said,
September 23, 2010 at 12:18 pm
The placard ‘Religion flies planes into buildings’ is the kind of crap that Dawkins uses to explain ‘terrorism’. He has less to say about secular terrorism, you know dropping bombs from planes or firing bullets from machine guns and other scientific weaponary.
resistor said,
September 23, 2010 at 1:03 pm
This is priceless
jim denham said,
September 23, 2010 at 3:53 pm
Resistwat: my stance viz a viz Tatchell is there for all to see. So is yours: people can judge for themselves who is telling the truth and who is a liar. I am happy to leave it at that.
Another God-squadder, Steve, seems to be lining up for a basic education in secularism and democracy from us Marxists; for staters, Steve, what exactly is wrong with the slogan “Religion flies planes into buildings”? Were those Islamofascist terroroists *not* motivated by religion, at least in large part? Given that *all* slogans (including those regularly used by the left) by definition involve a degree of over-simplication, I repeat: what was wong with that particlar slogan?
As for what you call “secular terrorism”: do you not understand the argument that there is a *fundametal* difference (morally, politically and militarily) between wars that inevitably cause civilian casualties, and actions that are *deliberately* aimed at civilians? The only people entitled to argue that there is, morally, no difference between the two are consistent and absolute pacifists: are you one of those?
SteveH said,
September 23, 2010 at 5:12 pm
“Another God-squadder, Steve”
For the record I don’t believe in god. I am just not silly enough to directly link religion and violence and directly link non religion and non violence.
“do you not understand the argument that there is a *fundametal* difference (morally, politically and militarily) between wars that inevitably cause civilian casualties, and actions that are *deliberately* aimed at civilians?”
I fail to understand how you connect secular terrorism and not targeting civilians, that betrays a hell of a lot. Though no more than I already knew.
Israel tend to use that argument when dropping bombs on residential areas. Forgive me if it doesn’t wash. The US knew full well the hell they were unleashing with the Iraq invasion but the bastards did it anyway.
Also ‘non civilians’ are human beings, often drawn from the working classes. At what point in history was it exactly when their deaths didn’t count?
jim denham said,
September 23, 2010 at 5:22 pm
Steve “I’m not religious” says: “For the record I don’t believe in god. I am just not silly enough to directly link religion and violence and directly link non religion and non violence”: in that case, Steve, you’re even more stupid, dishonest and hypocritical than I thought. At least believers have the excuse of false conciousness. You’re just an apologist for the worst kind of religious, political and social backwardness: religious belief is, presumably, appropriate for certain people, but nor for yourself. Despicable!
Harry Tuttle said,
September 23, 2010 at 6:05 pm
Steve wrote:
Brilliant resistor!! Sounds like the dregs came out in force!!
And yet here you are cheering on a former University lecturer who once called for the murder of Jews, argued that the Srebrenica massacre and Rwandan genocide never happened, and spent years Jew-baiting in the comments of Harry’s Place under the pseudonym Puzzled and Millard Foolmore. I gather some dregs are more equal than others.
Don’t you find it odd that resistor is defending the mini-Catholic state, given it owes its existence to Italian fascism. Yet, he has argued on this same blog against the only Jewish state, based on a vague link between Zionists and German fascists. All the while claiming to support Palestinian Muslims, despite his unflagging support for the anti-Muslim fascist Chetniks and the racist butcher Milošević.
Amazing, isn’t Steve, the people you find yourself cheering on in defense of an authoritarian organization with blood on its hands. But you can comfort yourself in the knowledge that as bad as resistor is, at least he’s an enemy of the oh-so dreadful Shiraz Socialist. Must keep our priorities in line, after all.
tc said,
September 23, 2010 at 11:25 pm
” religious belief is, presumably, appropriate for certain people, but nor for yourself. Despicable!”
OMG he has the same opinion as 99% of non-religious people (including Lenin funnilly enough). Despicable!
tc said,
September 23, 2010 at 11:26 pm
My gran is religious, I’m not, and I don’t care that she is. Does that make me despicable according to Jim Bean?
jim denham said,
September 23, 2010 at 11:58 pm
No (re-read what I wrote to Steve).
Steve said,
September 24, 2010 at 11:42 am
Harry Tuttle
I don’t have a clue about resistors history, I was merely commenting on what he said here. ‘Knowing’ his history has not changed my mind. As for other other views you would be better to put those points directly to him, wouldn’t you???
I am not cheerleader for the Vatican or the Pope I just find the level of argument used by sections of the left when attacking the Pope risible. Utter clap trap and a betrayal of intellectual rigour. Its the kind of misinformation, distortion I would expect some Zionist fuckwit to post on youtube.
And to compound the problem these people claim they are more Marxist than thou, if it wasn’t so tragic I would be laughing.
Harry Tuttle said,
September 24, 2010 at 4:48 pm
Fair enough, but the fascist coward resistor has been trolling Shiraz for a long time, best not to encourage him.
resistor said,
September 24, 2010 at 1:16 pm
Harry Tuttle is a liar. He knows that I have never used the pseudonyms Puzzled and Millard Foolmore.
As for “Religion flies planes into buildings” – funny slogan to use on a demo against the Pope.
So Denham, do you defend Tachell’s description of ‘Dares to Speak’ as an academic book?
Harry Tuttle said,
September 24, 2010 at 5:30 pm
The sock-puppet accounts used the same e-mail address and user name as your account; they also posted the same anti-Jewish, far-right nonsense that was a staple of all your Harry’s Place droppings. And when you finally disappeared* from Harry’s Place so did they. I’ve explained all of this to you before.
Despite the hospitality afforded you, in letting you post here almost unimpeded, you still treat this place and its hosts as refuse. How about returning to Stormfront where you can be among your kind?
*That would be right after the admin threatened to out you if you continued to post personal information about Harry of Harry’s Place. I’m surprised you didn’t stay – the racist cesspit that is the HP comments section would suit you well.