The Illusion of Realism
August 19, 2010 at 6:04 pm (Afghanistan, anti-fascism, Human rights, Max Dunbar, religion, women)
Recently Time published a special issue on Afghanistan that highlighted the human cost of the Taliban. Its front cover displayed a picture of a woman who’d had her nose and ears cut off by the Taliban for running from domestic violence. The response was predictable even by the standards of an intellectual discourse that gets more predictable by the day. The academic Priyamvada Gopal began her response with the classic and chilling words ‘Misogynic violence is unacceptable. But…’ before dismissing the Time article as ‘bedtime stories’.
‘The system,’ James Fergusson wrote, ‘is hard and brutal, but it works.’ He reminded Guardian readers that ’we have no right to be shrill and it will do no good to dictate’ and also that it ‘might help if we understood the Taliban better.’ Commenting on the murder of Bibi Sanubar, killed by the Taliban for being pregnant, he argues that her execution was an anomaly and the proper punishment by the Afghan courts would be a mere stoning. Social change in Afghanistan must be gradual and Fergusson is ‘certain, after 14 years of encounters with the Taliban, that they are not beyond redemption.’ Give them another 14 years of dominating the country and perhaps things may improve. Perhaps.
It’s fair to say that the war in its ninth year does not enjoy universal public support. Conservatives were gung-ho at first but began to flag when it became apparent that we weren’t going to be home by Christmas 2001. Like sometime Shiraz commenter Laban, they don’t see the point of risking the bones of a single Lancashire grenadier just so that little Nooria can go to school. The antiwar left has the same contempt for the human rights of Afghans but conceals it with sub-Chomsky rhetoric – and let’s not forget that some antiwar activists actually support the Taliban.
The great powers are now talking deal with the Taliban. It’s likely that the war will end in the same kind of imperial carve up which would have disgusted radicals of earlier generations, but won’t raise a fucking eyebrow today.
Opponents of the war, whether they are Pashtun experts or keyboard pacifists, tend to speak in terms of realism and as if they are intimate with the Afghan national psyche. NATO’s few supporters are increasingly portrayed as naive and wild eyed idealists trying to impose new-fangled Enlightenment concepts on a land they barely know. If they talk about Afghans at all, the antiwar consensus takers say that they will be best served under a deal with the Taliban.
Via Norm, Washington director of Human Rights Watch Tom Malinowski punctures the illusion of realism and explains how a deal with the fascists would not only be grotesquely immoral but catastrophic in geopolitical terms. Read the whole thing.
The Taliban is not just another warlord militia fighting for a piece of the action; it is an ideological movement whose leaders believe they were right to plunge Afghanistan into darkness when they ruled in the 1990s. In many parts of the country where they hold sway, they continue to kill women who go to school, work or participate in the political process, as well as the men who support them. If a Taliban provincial shadow governor with such a history were made the real governor of a province, the ‘night letters’ the Taliban now delivers to threaten women would become daytime edicts.
Perhaps that should not be enough to determine America’s strategy for ending the war. But before resigning ourselves to compromising our principles for peace, we must ask: Would such a trade-off bring the security it promises? This is where the realist argument collapses.
The same argument, after all, was made by Pakistan when it negotiated its 2008 settlement with the Taliban, giving it control of Swat Valley in exchange for pledges to recognize the writ of the central government and let women work without fear. The Taliban broke those promises; Pakistanis were horrified by images of women being whipped and schools being torched. Within months, the Pakistani army launched a massive military operation to retake what it had given away.
Much the same happened when Colombia ceded territory to the FARC insurgent group in 1999 (the FARC continued its kidnappings and killings, and war resumed); when Angola brought the UNITA party of brutal warlord Jonas Savimbi into its government in 1994 (the deal collapsed, and UNITA went back to fighting); when the international community helped broker a peace deal in Sierra Leone in 1999 that gave Foday Sankoh’s vicious rebel group a share of power (Sankoh’s forces continued to conduct attacks until a British intervention restored order). Each time we were shocked to learn that abusive, predatory movements, when given power, continue to behave in abusive, predatory ways.
The same is likely to happen in Afghanistan if those Taliban leaders who have committed the worst atrocities are given control over the communities they terrorized. Images of abuses against women are likely to be broadcast around the world, raising the painful question of whether this is what foreign and Afghan troops sacrificed for. There could be retribution against perceived U.S. and government collaborators, and people fleeing areas where insurgents are given power. Afghanistan’s ethnic minorities (who together constitute a majority) are especially fearful of a deal that increases the Taliban’s influence; many Afghans believe that a hasty process could lead to a broader civil war.
None of these appalling consequences would speed a U.S. withdrawal. Quite the opposite. And it is not realism, but a leap of faith born of desperation, to think they could be avoided simply by requiring ‘reconciling’ Taliban forces to renounce violence and support Afghanistan’s constitution.
Some suspect that talking about women’s rights is a pretext for keeping the United States in Afghanistan forever (ironically, the part of President Obama’s constituency that would normally be most concerned about defending women in Afghanistan is also the part most wary of the U.S. commitment there). But whether one believes in Gen. David Petraeus’s strategy of counterinsurgency for as long as it takes, or a more limited counterterrorism mission with fewer troops, there is no need for hasty deals that give the Taliban a share of power.
For if you try to settle the conflict in a way that sacrifices human rights in the name of peace, you will end up with neither.
Mike Killingworth said,
August 19, 2010 at 8:14 pm
None of which alters the facts that:
(i) the war is unwinnable;
(ii) the Taliban’s fascist attitude to women resonates with many young men in the West – particularly ill-educated black and Muslim ones.
jim denham said,
August 19, 2010 at 9:34 pm
(i) You a military expert?
(ii) How do you know? And even if true…so what?
Mike Killingworth said,
August 19, 2010 at 9:46 pm
(1) You don’t have to be a military expert to notice that you don’t start wars without an exit strategy – unless you believe it be a war of national survival. Do you regard our presence in Afghanistan as a precondition of our national survival? Those who do are usually called neoconservatives.
(2) Well, do you have any evidence to the contrary? It is well known that Islam can reach out to young black male prisoners, for example, in a way that neither Christianity nor liberal humanism can.
Laban said,
August 19, 2010 at 10:00 pm
“The antiwar left has the same contempt for the human rights of Afghans”
Has it occurred to you that there might just be a difference between having “contempt for the human rights of Afghans” and believing that we should be sending our young men (not yours, I understand) out to attempt to guarantee those rights at gunpoint (and at the incidental cost of their lives)?
“the Taliban’s fascist attitude to women”.
Do you know, when I read that I couldn’t resist googling for the Fascist Manifesto of 1919. I just had a feeling it wouldn’t be very like a Taleban platform.
Blimey. Nationalisation, female suffrage, attacking the Church – when are you going to join up ?
Jenny said,
August 19, 2010 at 10:21 pm
He’s right about bringing Afghanistan women themselves into the discussion. Surely RAWA and Malalai Joya would be just as suitable for a discussion?
maxdunbar said,
August 20, 2010 at 5:47 am
Jenny
You can read Malalai Joya on Taliban talks here: http://www.malalaijoya.com/dcmj/joya-in-media/512-dartay-hain-bandooqon-walay-ek-nehatti-larki-say.html
Laban
Well, you’re the expert on British fascism, aren’t you?
Laban said,
August 20, 2010 at 7:01 am
if you were straight when you posted you might be able to think up a reasoned argument rather than unreasoning abuse.But I suppose you ran out of arguments on this one some time ago…
Ed Maltby said,
August 20, 2010 at 9:24 am
But is this war the most effective way of defeating the Taliban? I think it’s naive to think so. The fact that Coalition troops are shooting at the Taliban at all is contingent, not on the Taliban’s fascist politics – but on the week-to-week interests of the USA in the region. If there were a way of getting NATO to adopt a position of ‘defending the cities’ and conducting counter-insurgency by issuing revolutionary decrees to rally peasants to an anti-Taliban programme, that would be good and you’d call for that. But that’s a fantasy.
Malalai Joya on the NATO war: Similarly, let’s not forget that the USA is not in Afghanistan for the sake of fighting the Taliban. She is there because of her strategic interests in the region. If they had been fighting Taliban, they would not have invited Mullah Omar and Gulbadin Hekmatyar for talks. Earlier, Hekmatyar was declared a terrorist by the USA. Recently, the names of five Taliban leaders including Taliban-era foreign minister Mullah Mutwakil, have been removed from UN’s list of terrorists. Now we are told that there are ‘moderate’ Taliban that the USA wants to engage through Karzai’s puppet regime. I wonder who and how one will determine that one is ‘a moderate’ Talib while the other is not. I ask if Mullah Omar is a ‘moderate’. In fact, there is no such thing as ‘moderate’ Taliban. The fact is the US is ready to deal with every dirty minded element in Afghanistan to stay and keep hold on Afghanistan. By the way, they also want to attack Helmand province. In fact , both Great Britain and the USA are trying to outdo each other in Helmand because uranium has been discovered in Helmand province.
FlyingRodent said,
August 20, 2010 at 9:41 am
Quite obviously, there’s a substantial difference between realism and reality itself. The former is a political theory while the latter is the actually-existing situation in which policy has to be made, within strict military, economic and political constraints, not all of which are of our making. The pretence that the two are identical or even similar is childish and irresponsible, I think.
But yes, this response is about what I’d expect – whenever the issue of what can realistically be achieved with the resources at our disposal comes up, it’s treated as if it were the second coming of Kissinger and casually flicked away by reiterating the Taliban’s viciousness for the billionth time. This isn’t surprising at all, since yer Maxes and Jims are basically magical realists, in the Garcia Marquez sense. The question of whether our lofty aims are achievable or not is irrelevant to them; minor details to be worked out by some Petraeusy militarty genius, and not a trouble for political minds.
Let’s be clear here – there is no relationship at all between “the Taliban’s horrifying nature” and “our ability to win in Afghanistan”. The two are utterly unconnected, like Thursdays and purple – invoking one against the other is a basic category error. We must win this unwinnable war because our enemies are evil doesn’t even stand up as a sentence, let alone a military policy.
I realise that this is far less rewarding for yer Jims and Maxes than condemning newspaper articles and demanding that people contribute rhetorically to Victory As An Act Of National Will, but there you go. Some folk have always prefered bold declarations of intent to difficult and troubling thought about what can actually be achieved .
Mike Killingworth said,
August 20, 2010 at 9:50 am
Thankyou, FR. That’s exactly what I would’ve said were I in possession of a brain of sufficient size…
John Meredith said,
August 20, 2010 at 9:54 am
“We must win this unwinnable war because our enemies are evil doesn’t even stand up as a sentence, let alone a military policy.”
No, but then there is no good reason to think this is an ‘unwinnable war’ and ‘we must win this war because our enemies are evil’ does not seem so outlandish.
Those like the Rodent who wish to return Afghanistan to the tender mercies of the Taliban, in defiance of the clearly and repeatedly expressed preference of the Afghans themselves, keep repeating the ‘unwinnable war’ construction as if it is a magic argument-winning charm. But they never explain what they mean by it. As far as I can see, the war has already been won by some definitions and is eminently winnable by most of the others. I think Rodent and ilk are probably applying some impossible-to-achieve standard such as ‘complete capitualation of the Taliban to the ideals of enlightenment secularism’ in order to disguise their cynicsm, but since nobody who defends the NATO presence seems to share this definition of ‘winning’ it renders any debate fruitless. I think Rodent’s position is essentially Kissingerian and can be summed up as: the war against the Taliban is expensive in lives and materiel and the regional balance of power can be maintained even if we withdraw, so we should withdraw.
FlyingRodent said,
August 20, 2010 at 9:57 am
I stopped reading at Those like the Rodent who wish to return Afghanistan to the tender mercies of the Taliban, myself. I advise others to do likewise.
John Meredith said,
August 20, 2010 at 10:01 am
Rodent, I am far from surprised that you won’t engage with the real arguments levelled against you rather than the parody of them you prefer to hide behind.
You accuse others of ‘magical realism’ in their thinking and yet want to claim that withdrawal of NATO troops from Afghanistan will not result in the re-domination of Afghan society by the Taliban? That really is fantasy.
BenSix said,
August 20, 2010 at 10:13 am
By not supporting an invasion of the DPRK, do you wish to leave the Koreans to the tender mercies of Kim Jong-il?
John Meredith said,
August 20, 2010 at 10:26 am
“By not supporting an invasion of the DPRK, do you wish to leave the Koreans to the tender mercies of Kim Jong-il?”
There is a large difference, as you must see (and as Rodent repeatedly pretends not to be able to) between not entering a conflict and, having entered one, withdrawing. If we can afford to stay in Afghanistan (as we can) and choose to withdraw, we are morally complicit in the evils that follow from our withdrawal. We are not morally responsible for situations we can do nothing about such as that in DPRK.
skidmarx said,
August 20, 2010 at 10:32 am
As Tonto said to the Lone Ranger,”Who’s this we, paleface?”
John Meredith said,
August 20, 2010 at 10:40 am
We is you, me and the political/social community to which we belong. I know there are red-in-tooth-and-claw libertarians out there who reject all such, but I think most of us believe in society and that we are implicated in the acts good and bad of our society.
FlyingRodent said,
August 20, 2010 at 10:56 am
If NATO withdraw from Afghanistan, the Taliban may very well take over the whole country, or stay where they are, or even lose in a civil conflict to an almost-as-nasty rival clan. Similarly, if NATO withdraw in five years after the constant drip-drip of profitless death makes the war politically unsustainable, the Taliban may well take over the whole country then too.
The one thing that I can’t see happening – for reason’s I’ve laid out at boring length and in very great detail at this very blog – is any conceivable outcome that will be acceptable to NATO. If it were offered at present, I think Petraeus would bite your hand off for the status quo of the Taliban staying in Pashtun southern Afghanistan and not menacing anyone else to badly.
This is an important point, by the way. If we plan now for withdrawal in a couple of years, we have time and space to try to shape the country for our exit. Public patience is not infinite – it’s already highly negative – and sooner or later, US or UK opinion is going to turn decisively against the war and that will be that. The question we should be asking is how we prepare ourselves and our allies for that eventuality.
I propose that we should be honest with them and configure their forces to best withstand the enemy after our inevitable departure. This would be “engaging with reality”. John’s position – magical thinking, like I say – would see helicopters fleeing Kabul roofs and thirty years of tiresome arse about how the dirty hippies undermined our righteous war.
There is a large difference… between not entering a conflict and, having entered one, withdrawing.
There is indeed, John. One is a weird mix of the the sunk costs fallacy and the argument ex fantasia bullshitto – We must eat Saturn with a fork and a spoon, or (x)! – the other isn’t.
If we can afford to stay in Afghanistan (as we can) and choose to withdraw, we are morally complicit in the evils that follow from our withdrawal.
Never in the field of human conflict has so Vietnammy an argument hung by such a gigantic, Nixonian “IF”. This was the entirety of the pro-war case in Vietnam, since the VC and the NVA were genuinely horrible people. The Americans still lost, you’ll notice.
Harry Tuttle said,
August 20, 2010 at 5:33 pm
This is an important point, by the way. If we plan now for withdrawal in a couple of years, we have time and space to try to shape the country for our exit.
I’m pretty sure that’s where the United States is headed. The political brain trust realize that the Taliban are merely a symptom of the bigger problem: Pakistan and its role in the region. Most likely the United States will leave behind a small contingent to keep the Taliban busy, but the conventional portion of this conflict is just about over.
It will be interesting to see how the relationship between the United States and Pakistan changes once the main forces pulls out.
Laban said,
August 20, 2010 at 10:58 am
John Meredith – a little off the main thrust, but your comment 11 says the Afghans themselves don’t want the Taleban, and your post 13 that, without troops of the North Atlantic Treaty Organisation, the Taleban will inevitably dominate Afghanistan.
I can appreciate that, as a bunch of armed thugs the Taleban can dominate – if they’re the only ones with weapons. But aren’t we handing out lots of nice kit to the Afghan Army, who, as representatives of ‘the Afghans themselves’, should be more than capable of seeing them off ?
Or, is it, as I fear it might be, not as simple as that ?
SAEED said,
August 20, 2010 at 11:00 am
what is wrong with decents liker max?
even afghan fem. have called for nato troops to leave afghan….its an argument that, if made doesn’t mean abandoning afghan women….
whAT would be harder for max and other decents would be to make arguments outlining how our current occupation will aid afghan women….
i support and have always supported the wests action against the taliban…what supporters of the war must do is show some humilty, accept mistakes have been made….
many of the pro-war left supporters of the war don’t care about women in muslim countries…they only care about attcking other people on the left and they will use any dirty trick to do it….e.g calling ian bruma racist when he described AHA as overzealous when the same argument is made by other somali feminists/iranian anti-thesits
Laban said,
August 20, 2010 at 11:03 am
this post should really have been titled ‘The Realism of Illusion’
John Meredith said,
August 20, 2010 at 11:10 am
” This was the entirety of the pro-war case in Vietnam, since the VC and the NVA were genuinely horrible people. The Americans still lost, you’ll notice.”
The illusion that the current Afghan war is just like or similar to the Vietnam war is pervasive in the ‘realist’ school of thinking that Rodent exemplifies and goes some way to explaining its pathologies.
“The one thing that I can’t see happening – for reason’s I’ve laid out at boring length and in very great detail at this very blog – is any conceivable outcome that will be acceptable to NATO.”
I know you can’t, but others can. None of us know for sure and we never will (we will just find out what the by-definition unpredictable future turns out to hold). What we can agree on though is that when you talk about this being an ‘unwinnable war’ you are using a very specialised meaning of ‘unwinnable’.
John Meredith said,
August 20, 2010 at 11:14 am
“whAT would be harder for max and other decents would be to make arguments outlining how our current occupation will aid afghan women….”
Our presence in Afghanistan (it is not an occupation, by the way) is already aiding Afghan women. The fact that some Afghan women can go to school, for example, or talk in public, or uncover heir faces or hold jobs, or vote etc is all down to that presence (together with other factors of course).
John Meredith said,
August 20, 2010 at 11:16 am
“I can appreciate that, as a bunch of armed thugs the Taleban can dominate – if they’re the only ones with weapons. But aren’t we handing out lots of nice kit to the Afghan Army, who, as representatives of ‘the Afghans themselves’, should be more than capable of seeing them off ?”
Yes it is true that another possible result would be a protracted civil war with no clear winner, but I think that the Taliban is likely to be the best organised and (through Pakistan) the best armed force in the country and I believe that is the general opinion.
resistor said,
August 20, 2010 at 11:25 am
Has Max got himself down to the Army Recruitment Centre yet? if not, I’m sending him a digital white feather.
John Meredith said,
August 20, 2010 at 11:29 am
“Has Max got himself down to the Army Recruitment Centre yet? if not, I’m sending him a digital white feather”
No opinion on the war is valid if you are not yourself serving? When did you join up resistor?
resistor said,
August 20, 2010 at 11:34 am
I take it you’re another chickenhawk John?
John Meredith said,
August 20, 2010 at 11:36 am
“I take it you’re another chickenhawk John?”
I don’t think so. Can I take it you are another fascist fellow traveller? (Such fun this game!)
FlyingRodent said,
August 20, 2010 at 11:46 am
The illusion that the current Afghan war is just like or similar to the Vietnam war is pervasive in the ‘realist’ school of thinking that Rodent exemplifies…
Well, you’ll notice that the realists were in charge of prosecuting that war with maximum violence, while the idealists were carrying the placards. I try and fail to think of common ground with Kissinger on that war, but I suppose that if you’re not at all interested in events occurring in reality and prefer windy bullshit, then the comparison may be urgent and compelling.
Afghanistan is significantly more similar to the Vietnam War than it is to, say, WWII. Superpower vs. committed insurgency in war of dubious military utility, etc. It’s especially pertinent because you said we had a moral obligation to stick in Afghanistan if we can afford it. The argument was the same in Vietnam, yet as it turned out, the US couldn’t afford it.
It was militarily, politically, economically and morally ruinous and once support collapsed, that was that. Withdrawal was a certainty even while Nixon was at the height of his bombast, but he was still willing to kill tens of thousands of civilians and military personnel on both sides in a war he knew for certain would end in defeat. And remember, Nixon was the realist in that case.
Rosie said,
August 20, 2010 at 11:56 am
Very good balanced article here:-
http://www.dissentmagazine.org/online.php?id=379
resistor said,
August 20, 2010 at 1:08 pm
Dunbar writes, ‘Recently Time published a special issue on Afghanistan that highlighted the human cost of the Taliban. Its front cover displayed a picture of a woman who’d had her nose and ears cut off by the Taliban for running from domestic violence. ‘
But what were the facts?
http://www.rawa.org/temp/runews/2010/08/15/time-exploits-victim-to-promote-war.html
and
http://www.thenation.com/article/154020/afghan-women-have-already-been-abandoned
‘I heard Aisha’s story from her a few weeks before the image of her face was displayed all over the world. She told me that her father-in-law caught up with her after she ran away, and took a knife to her on his own; village elders later approved, but the Taliban didn’t figure at all in this account. The Time story, however, attributes Aisha’s mutilation to a husband under orders of a Talib commander, thereby transforming a personal story, similar to those of countless women in Afghanistan today, into a portent of things to come for all women if the Taliban return to power. Profoundly traumatized, Aisha might well muddle her story, but what excuses reporters who seem to inflate the role of the Taliban with every repetition of the case? Some reports have Aisha “sentenced” by a whole Taliban “jirga.” ‘
You see how Max and Rosie uncritically use pro-occupation sources to recycle propaganda. Dissent magazine indeed!
John Meredith said,
August 20, 2010 at 1:16 pm
“Afghanistan is significantly more similar to the Vietnam War than it is to, say, WWII. ”
And my Auntie Fanny is significantly more like Graham Gardner than she is Ava Gardner, but, honestly, she isn’t much like either so I can’t see much point in making the comparison.
” It’s especially pertinent because you said we had a moral obligation to stick in Afghanistan if we can afford it. The argument was the same in Vietnam, yet as it turned out, the US couldn’t afford it.”
And, as I keep having to point out, we might be able to ‘afford’ one but not the other because they are not at all alike, and your determination to pretend they are is likely to lead you into confusion.
Rosie, thanks for that link it is an excellent article. It is a pity that the Resistors of the world will continue to try to minimise that sort of suffering if they disapprove of the victim.
skidmarx said,
August 20, 2010 at 4:08 pm
From said article:
“The real effects of the NATO occupation” include “the worsening of many women’s lives under the lethally violent combination of old patriarchal feudalism and new corporate militarism.” It’s conceivable that this is true, but it’s impossible to know how Crowe and Gopal have come to their arguments, since they offer no supporting evidence and do not bother to interview anyone in Afghanistan.
If it is true, it blows away the argument that NATO staying will improve women’s lives.But the John Merediths of this world will continue try to minimise that sort of suffering.
On another note the recent Angus McQueen documentary on Channel 4 showed how the discriminatory effect of America’s War on Drugs in which Karzai’s associates are allowed to go free while the poor are imprisoned for having no choices, drives people against the occupation.
resistor said,
August 20, 2010 at 5:12 pm
Dissent magazine hosts the archives of (former AWL warmonger) Alan Johnson’s magazine Democratiya. They are now responsible for the content. This includes Johnson having a friendly chat with the far-right racist Islamophobe Andrew Bostom.
http://dissentmagazine.org/democratiya/article_pdfs/d15Bostom.pdf#
Background on Bostom and the company he keeps
http://www.loonwatch.com/tag/andrew-bostom/
charliethechulo said,
August 20, 2010 at 5:26 pm
Resister sez: “Johnson having a friendly chat with the far-right racist Islamophobe Andrew Bostom”;
I say: so wot?
jim denham said,
August 20, 2010 at 5:40 pm
Rodent, when you say,
“since yer Maxes and Jims are basically magical realists, in the Garcia Marquez sense. The question of whether our lofty aims are achievable or not is irrelevant to them; minor details to be worked out by some Petraeusy militarty genius, and not a trouble for political minds.
“Let’s be clear here – there is no relationship at all between “the Taliban’s horrifying nature” and “our ability to win in Afghanistan”. The two are utterly unconnected, like Thursdays and purple – invoking one against the other is a basic category error. We must win this unwinnable war because our enemies are evil doesn’t even stand up as a sentence, let alone a military policy”…
JD (replies): I reply (as I have done before, on your own blog): that’s a military consideration, upon which I (and I suspect, you) are not competent to comment. My concern is *political*: that the Taleban are a form of clerical fascism, whose defeat all socialists should wish for. The fact that some degenerates (The SWP, ‘Socialist Resistance, etc) seem to support these gynophobic fascists, is utterly depressing. To argue that the “West” should do a deal with the Taliban because no other alternative is possible on purely military grounds is one thing: to welcome a Taliban victory is quite another. I trust that those “leftists” who look forward to at Taliban victory, will at least have the decency to, henceforth, just keep quiet about such concepts as women’s rights, freedom of speech, secularism, etc, etc…clearly such ideas are OK for us white Westerners, but not for brown people in Afghanistan…
PS: where would you have stood on the Bolsheviks in October 1917? Doomed to failure? Better not to try? Accept that we’re dealing with a backward society not yet ready for democracy, etc..?
Wazhma Frogh and women’s rights in Afghanistan « Raincoat Optimism said,
August 20, 2010 at 6:11 pm
[...] feel duty bound to seek answers from those who have raised this issue – Earwicga, The Atlantic, Max Dunbar, HM, Laurie and many more – how do you respond to the following by Wazhma [...]
maxdunbar said,
August 20, 2010 at 6:35 pm
The point is this. It’s not misplaced idealism (although, if an issue ever demanded idealism, this is it) to suggest that surrender has a cost. It’s not naivety to recognise that the problems of Afghanistan and our entanglement with this country will magically end if we do the quick-fix antiwar solution of just pulling out and going home. I know many of you don’t care about Afghans. I know many of you won’t listen to the polls that tell us that a majority of Afghans support our presence there. But you do care about Britain and Britain is intimately involved with the Middle East. It is not something we can just walk away from without cost.
As Lenny Henry says every Comic Relief: Forget geography. These are your neighbours.
maxdunbar said,
August 20, 2010 at 6:36 pm
Resistor
I’m not sure the British Army would take me, as I have a history of mental illness.
This is assuming I have some kind of obligation to join up, which I don’t
FlyingRodent said,
August 20, 2010 at 8:33 pm
I reply: that’s a military consideration, upon which I (and I suspect, you) are not competent to comment. My concern is *political*: that the Taleban are a form of clerical fascism, whose defeat all socialists should wish for.
Well, good on you for going at the meat of my comment, however briefly. I reply, then – sure, fuck a bunch of the Taliban, hellfire missiles be upon them though hopefully not also on their wives, children and neighbours.
Yet surely you see the vast irony in cheering on a fight against fascism… by solely focusing on the political aspect and washing your hands of the military, in the hope that a gang of generals will be able to blast some peace into the region with high explosives, far from the public eye? If I thought that our political class paid no attention to military matters and took the opinions of generals on faith, I’d move to New Zealand tomorrow.
Anyway, what the hell. This philosophy, taken to its logical conclusion, would have interesting results if some joker suggested war with China or North Korea, for instance. The fall of those regimes and the liberation of their peoples are presumably goals that all good democrats would get behind.
Would the obvious – to amateurs! – fact that our armed forces would be devastated, that the battlefield may be obliterated with nukes in minutes, and that the counterattack would be ruinous, count for anything with you?
All of these are military considerations, yet they’d be verboten if we were to listen to your advice. I suggest that this tactic is very, very convenient indeed if you want to push failing wars. It amounts to sticking your fingers in your ears and singing Born To Kill at the top of your voice whenever anyone points you to the bodycount.
I’ve said this before and I’ll say it again – you don’t need to be an expert to make an informed guess. I’m not Brian Clough, but I can see that Spurs got rumped in Switzerland. I didn’t invent Youtube, but I know that Rickrollers should be killed. I’m not a soldier, but I can read newspapers, magazines and books, educate myself a bit on this stuff and draw conclusions. It takes a little work, but it’s not hard.
where would you have stood on the Bolsheviks in October 1917?
Put me firmly in the “I have no fucking idea whatsoever” camp. I’m hugely in sympathy with the cause but I’m not wildly impressed with the results.
FlyingRodent said,
August 20, 2010 at 8:43 pm
Max – some fair points. Still, this clearly isn’t going in -
It is misplaced idealism to insist that victory is compulsory when defeat may be inevitable. It is bullshit to imply that I think leaving would result in peace – I don’t, not at all.
It is misplaced idealism to repeatedly invoke positive opinion polls while refusing to face the horrible truth that clearly, a substantial proportion of southern Afghans want the Taliban to smash all of their opponents – it’s impossible to maintain an insurgency without a decent level of civilian support in the area you’re operating in. Mao – a man who knew a few things about mental, ultraviolent insurgent movements – said this fifty years ago and it’s as true now as it was then.
The Taliban are evil bastards – the consequences of NATO admitting defeat and going home may very well be horrifying. That is totally unconnected to NATO’s ability to win the war. Refusal to admit to this and demands that the war continue indefinitely is magical thinking.
Jenny said,
August 20, 2010 at 9:23 pm
I think the dIssent article Rosie posted is somewhat condescending towards those who disagreed with the cover, particular those of muslim descent who already felt marginalized, I’m sure. I don’t think it’s right to use someone’s photo to further a certain political agenda and frankly, I find it exploitative.
johng said,
August 20, 2010 at 10:47 pm
Most of us always knew that it would end in an imperial carve up. That is why we opposed the war. Why on earth did you ever think anything different? Its complete balderdash to suggest that radicals have changed at all. We oppose imperial carve-ups quite consistantly. Its radicals who supported one and tried to dress it up in their own fantasies about ‘liberal internationalism’ who have some explaining to do.
Jenny said,
August 20, 2010 at 10:57 pm
I don’t see it as imperial. I’d be in favor of Afghanistan post 9/11 if they, you know, just sent in agents to get a hold of Bin Laden.But now, I don’t think this war’s working because as the taliban get more and more popular due to poorly planned development, the U.S. troops get more and more irresponsible with civil casualties and the cycle starts over and over again. Where they bloody hell is Malalai Joya when we need her?
jim denham said,
August 21, 2010 at 2:27 am
Rodent: “I’ve said this before and I’ll say it again – you don’t need to be an expert to make an informed guess. I’m not Brian Clough, but I can see that Spurs got rumped in Switzerland. I didn’t invent Youtube, but I know that Rickrollers should be killed. I’m not a soldier, but I can read newspapers, magazines and books, educate myself a bit on this stuff and draw conclusions. It takes a little work, but it’s not hard.”
I reply:
Rodent, I think the main reason we don’t agree is because we have completely different starting points in this debate. I agree with Clausewitz: that war is politics by other means. My *only* consideration regarding war is politics. Well, that and “blood and treasure”, which is a mere technical accounting exercise that *anyone*, regardless of politics, can do.
That’s why I refuse to involve myself in military considerations: they’re not what should concern socialists, especially those socialists (the majority) not competent to make military judgements.
When the US forces “won” their initial invasion of Afghanistan in 2001, people like Christopher Hitchens crowed that their assessment of the military situation had been vindicated. I said at the time that he likes of Hitchens had no right to bask in that glory, as they were not military experts and had had no way of predicting that victory. The only people who could claim any credit for that *military* success were the likes of Colin Powell.
Exactly the same applies to today’s anti-war “experts” with their favourite catch-phrase, “unwinnable”: they know nothing about military matters, so either:
1/ They’re simply “realists”/pacifists who don’t want to fight for *anything*; or
2/ They are positively in favour of military victory for the Taliban (the SWP, Socialist Resistance, Workers Power and sections of the ‘Morning Star’ Stalinist “left” fall into this camp).
Either way, they’re people who from now on should shut the fuck up about women’s rights, democracy and secularism.
shug said,
August 21, 2010 at 6:23 am
What slice of the pie do we get.Well you can have the crop harvested.What about the rest of us,well, you will get what our borders provide, with the will of Allah.
FlyingRodent said,
August 21, 2010 at 9:29 am
military considerations: they’re not what should concern socialists, especially those socialists (the majority) not competent to make military judgements.
This is exactly wrong. It’s imperative that people – socialists and everyone else – pay attention to military matters in a democracy. Your opinion here leaves everything to the generals, and here’s a horrible historical fact about wars – generals always believe that they can win, if only they’re given an infinite amount of blood and treasure to work with. Civilian control of the military is an essential for viable democracy, and that requires the electorate to keep an eye on what the generals are up to and rein them in when they exceed themselves, otherwise you get… well, you can guess. The best-case scenario is a series of Douglas MacArthur figures, and the worst is… worse.
either: 1/ They’re simply “realists”/pacifists who don’t want to fight for *anything*
As you’ve repeatedly demonstrated, you have no grasp of what realism is and you yourself are adamant that you aren’t even interested in reality itself, preferring to work with pure political theory. You’re incapable of distinguishing between the two. You’ve nuked your own argument here and rendered your judgement of anti-war sentiment absolutely worthless.
Either way, they’re people who from now on should shut the fuck up about women’s rights, democracy and secularism.
You have this exactly arse-backwards. Your refusal to consider what’s actually happening in Afghanistan is the democratic equivalent of reckless endangerment. Calling for the continuation and even escalation of an extremely violent conflict while openly stating that you don’t give a shit whether it will result in victory, defeat or just a horrifically bloody stalemate shows no concern at all for women’s rights, democracy or secularism, far less the lives of Afghan civilians or military personnel.
It’s you that should shut the fuck up, Jimbo. I amazed that you have the stones to make these deranged arguments for ignoring reality itself underneath a post called “the illusion of realism”.
shug said,
August 21, 2010 at 10:32 am
When the idea of socialism has melted the metal of religion,can we then have a talk without insul to express our various thoughts.Daft this machine,gives all points of view,from who knows where..
maxdunbar said,
August 21, 2010 at 12:14 pm
Has it not occurred to your incisive strategic mind that many civilians will be afraid to throw obstacles in the way of the Taliban for very obvious reasons.
Look in your little red book and get back to me.
FlyingRodent said,
August 21, 2010 at 1:48 pm
Has it not occurred to your incisive strategic mind that many civilians will be afraid to throw obstacles in the way of the Taliban for very obvious reasons.
It has, as it happens. This is the second time I’ve answered this here, I think… http://tinyurl.com/35rmxmn
Summary – if the Taliban are largely composed of foreign Jihadis who are maintaining control through terror, then the war can be won. Civilians can be convinced to pass on information, locals to take up arms against the foreign invader, and two years down the line every Pakistani madrassa headbanger will be dead or in a Kabul dungeon.
That’s what happened to AQ in Iraq when the Sunnis decided they needed the Americans to protect them from extermination en masse by their neighbours. To UK/US soldiers, foreign jihadists are indistinguishable from locals, but the locals themselves can spot them a mile off. They’ll help, if they want to, and that’s the only way this thing will be won.
If the Taliban is largely composed of native Pashtun tribesmen – and all the indicators suggest that it is – forget it, war’s over. Any effort made to capture southern cities and depose the Taliban are doomed.
The very best that can be done in that situation is to hold the ground currently occupied, where the locals are actually pleased to see us, and to hope the insurgency burns itself out. Bluntly, nobody is going to feed us information or help, because they would be helping us to kill their own brothers, sons and fathers. If we’re fighting the Pashtun, then you’re talking about trying to free women from the oppression of their own husbands by bombing their houses. How the hell is that going to work?
I fully grant I may have this all wrong, and I hope that I do. The implications of the latter case are pretty horrible.
Look in your little red book and get back to me.
Don’t own a copy, never read it, don’t plan to. I’m using Mao here as an example of a very well-known historical figure who demonstrated the simplicity and viability of insurgent warfare, decades ago, to show that you don’t have to be Sun Tzu to grasp what’s going on. You don’t need an incisive, stragic brain – you just need to read a bit. Oh, and not be an ideological fantasist, that’s important too.
It’s not new, it’s not complicated and it’s not beyond the layman’s comprehension. Since Jim is saying that isn’t the case – that military actions are far too complicated for us to comment on with any authority – it’s worth pointing out that this isn’t so.
jim denham said,
August 21, 2010 at 2:25 pm
Rodent: our difference(s) can be summed up thus:
I subscribe to Marx, the Bolsheviks and Clausewitz: you don’t.
Fair enough. Just thought we ought to clarify that.
Btw: I have *never* said (or written) anything that could be remotely, reasonably, construed as “Calling for the continuation and even escalation of an extremely violent conflict while openly stating that you don’t give a shit whether it will result in victory, defeat or just a horrifically bloody stalemate shows no concern at all for women’s rights, democracy or secularism, far less the lives of Afghan civilians or military personnel.”
What I’ve said (and written) is that *if* a military withdrawal and/or deal with the Taliban (“moderate” or otherwise) is the “least bad” option then let’s recognise it for what it is: a *defeat* for democracy and human rights, not the victory that pro-fascists like the SWP and the “Stop the War Coalition”, plus various Stalinist enemies of humanity like Seamas Milne, have wet ‘anti-imperialist’ dreams about.
skidmarx said,
August 21, 2010 at 3:11 pm
Subscriber to Clausewitz,huh:
“A certain grasp of military affairs is vital for those in charge of general policy.”
“blood and treasure”, which is a mere technical accounting exercise that *anyone*, regardless of politics, can do and I reply (as I have done before, on your own blog): that’s a military consideration, upon which I (and I suspect, you) are not competent to comment. sound a lot like Calling for the continuation and even escalation of an extremely violent conflict while openly stating that you don’t give a shit whether it will result in victory, defeat or just a horrifically bloody stalemate shows no concern at all for women’s rights, democracy or secularism, far less the lives of Afghan civilians or military personnel.
The Big Lie here is that those who point out that the occupation drives Afghans into the arms of the Taliban are portrayed as supportive of the Taliban. Pro-fascists like the SWP and the “Stop the War Coalition”, plus various Stalinist enemies of humanity like Seamas Milne, have wet ‘anti-imperialist’ dreams about. is several little lies strung together.
FlyingRodent said,
August 21, 2010 at 3:23 pm
Yes, it’s the old Hitchens gambit – I’m not saying that we should start/continue this war, I’m just saying that not starting/continuing this war would hand a morally unacceptable victory to the enemy and that pretty much everyone who argues against starting/continuing the war is a fascist who supports the enemy.
It’s a neat rhetorical wriggle, I grant you. After a few weeks arguing this on and off with Jim, it is pretty noticeable that he rocks like a hurricane on windy rhetoric and fiery denunciation, but not so much on facts on the ground.
jim denham said,
August 21, 2010 at 6:51 pm
Rodent: I’m not “on the ground” in the sense you mean, and don’t pretend to be. All I’m in a position to do is to argue the basic politics of the situation – something you seem unwilling to do.
FlyingRodent said,
August 21, 2010 at 8:16 pm
All I’m in a position to do is to argue the basic politics of the situation – something you seem unwilling to do.
There’s a reason for that, Jim. It’s because boiling the Afghan war down to The Taliban are bastards, We must win and Those who say otherwise are also bastards is fine if you’re talking to ten-year-olds, but not if you’re trying to work out what’s actually happening.
The politicians who actually run the war – none of whom are soldiers, as far as I know – have to take decisions based on practicality and feasibility. If you don’t acknowledge this, then you really are reducing the war to a bedtime story.
jim denham said,
August 21, 2010 at 8:30 pm
I haver a feeling, Rodent, that we are so far apart here that we’re not going to get anywhere…but I’ll give it a try:
1/ Neither you nor I are military experts…agreed?
2/ We’re in no popsition to judge whether any given military campaign is “winnable” or “unwinnable” from a purely military point of view…agreed?
3/ The UK in WW2 was widely considered to be in an “unwinnable” situation, and “realists” urged a deal with Nazi Germany…true?
4/ None of us know whether the Afghan campaign is “winnable” from a purely military point of view…agreed?
5/ Therefore all we can do is make a political assessment…yes?
6/ Causewitz’s axiom that war is “poltics by other means”, and that the worth of war must be judged by “blood and treasure” seem to me to be as good criteria as any I’ve ever come across…agreed?
7/ If it turns out that this war is, indeed, “unwinnable” then a deal will have to be done with the fascists of the Taliban. But that will be a defeat for democracy and human rights internationally, and not just in Afghanistan…agreed?
FlyingRodent said,
August 21, 2010 at 9:22 pm
Given that you don’t seem to have any interest in disputing anything I’m saying, but expect me to respond to your questionnaire, I shouldn’t bother. What the hell, tho…
1) Sure!
2) I’ve addressed this repeatedly in this thread. I’ll say this again – it’s not just possible for people to form valid opinions on military matters, it’s absolutely vital in a democracy. Expertise is neither here nor there, and the suggestion that an opinion is worthless without it would delight authoritarians and dictators.
3) Depends – nobody thought the UK on its own could fight back and defeat the Nazis on mainland Europe, but most thought they could defend themselves against a German invasion of Britain. The analogue you’re looking for here is actually Vietnam, whatever Meredith says – the NVA and VC weren’t much nicer than the Taliban, and the war every bit as ill-conceived. The Soviet occupation of Afghanistan would also do nicely.
4) No. I can take an informed guess and history is on the side of my argument, not yours.
5) No. This is a weak attempt to ring-fence the war within parameters that you like and feel comfortable in.
6) My Clausewitz is rusty, if it ever existed. What did he have to say about lost causes?
7) I can buy that it’ll be a defeat for human rights and democracy, but let’s not pretend that those were ever the primary goals or even the means by which the war was fought.
You’ll struggle to invoke democracy with Karzai in charge, dubiously elected and forced to cut deals with allies every bit as nasty as the Taliban themselves. There are no human rights in Bagram, a monument to extrajudicial detention beyond the rule of law; nor are human rights respected throughout most of the country, by ourselves, our allies or our enemies. It’ll be a disaster for the people of northern Afghanistan and maybe beyond, but less so for the Pashtun who are already living with it.
We didn’t invade to defend women, or to protect human rights or any of that stuff. We’re there because we went in to get Al Qaeda and then, our objectives accomplished and the enemy driven out… we stayed, for some reason that escapes me. In the end, casting the war as a struggle for human rights and democracy is utterly childish, and just part of your total refusal to look at the war being fought rather than the one in your head.
WOT EVAH said,
August 21, 2010 at 9:30 pm
“the NVA and VC weren’t much nicer than the Taliban”
Yet they were a lot “nicer” than the US army and their South Vietnamese puppet regime. Whilst the Vietnam war was proven to be unwinnable, that wasn’t the thing that was primarily wrong with it. The thing that was wrong with it were that its aims were utterly immoral and the means by which they were attempted to be achieved were genocidal. It was good that they were defeated by the NLF.
jim denham said,
August 21, 2010 at 10:11 pm
Rodent says (quite correctly): “We didn’t invade to defend women, or to protect human rights or any of that stuff. We’re there because we went in to get Al Qaeda”
But I must add some common sense (courtesy of “Stumbling and Mumbling” http://stumblingandmumbling.typepad.com/stumbling_and_mumbling/2010/08/collateral-benefits-motivecentrism.html):
Let’s be honest. The west’s decision to invade Afghanistan was not motivated by a desire to liberate women from the Taliban. But does it follow that “invoking the condition of women to justify occupation is a cynical ploy”, as Ms Gopal claims?
Yes and No. Yes, if it is used to obfuscate the motives for the invasion.
But no, if we are judging the desirability of the war. Unless you’re a pacifist, such a judgment is a cost-benefit calculation, and the improvement in the condition of Afghan women surely counts as a benefit of defeating the Taliban. Afghan women may be collateral, unintended, beneficiaries of the invasion – but collateral benefits must be included in the cost-benefit analysis, just as collateral damage must be.
So what’s your “cost-benefit calculation” of the cost to half the population of Afghanistan if and when the Taliban gain complete control, Rodent?
Good job you’re not an Afghani woman, eh?
FlyingRodent said,
August 21, 2010 at 10:21 pm
Good job you’re not an Afghani woman, eh?
Good job you’re not a fucking general, Jim. Or a Prime Minister, for that matter.
jim denham said,
August 21, 2010 at 11:23 pm
“Good job you’re not a fucking general, Jim. Or a Prime Minister, for that matter.”
I think that says it all. Thanks, Rodent: you’ve summed up our differences.
I (like Marx and all genuine Marxists) do not provide advice to the ruling class class. Nor am I an “inspector general of history.”
PS: this guy (“Wot Evah”) makes a good point:
“the NVA and VC weren’t much nicer than the Taliban”
Yet they were a lot “nicer” than the US army and their South Vietnamese puppet regime. Whilst the Vietnam war was proven to be unwinnable, that wasn’t the thing that was primarily wrong with it. The thing that was wrong with it were that its aims were utterly immoral and the means by which they were attempted to be achieved were genocidal. It was good that they were defeated by the NLF.
Yes indeed! Whatever was wrong with the NLF, there were positive reasons to support them and hope for their victory. Give me just *one* positive reason to support the Taliban or desire their victory?
FlyingRodent said,
August 21, 2010 at 11:50 pm
As amply demonstrated by this thread Jim, you’re a bullshitter with nothing but half-arsed moral blackmail and highly conditional hand-waving by way of argument. Bullshitters can’t provide advice to anyone, because even the most cursory scrutiny quickly exposes them as puddle-deep thinkers – essentially, none-too-smart human parrots – but they are very good at empty windbaggery, diversionary flatulence and denunciation of irrelevant no-marks.
But hey, “The Illusion of Realism”. Jesus, you guys have really crushed that argument, haven’t you?
jim denham said,
August 21, 2010 at 11:55 pm
I’m genuinely sorry that you’ve been reduced to vulgar abuse, Rodent. For a while I thought you were worth arguing with.
The bourgeoisie always produce “clever” people who think they’re “realists”: a bit like Blair, Clegg and Cameron. I’m happier with the Bolsheviks.
Or, indeed, all people who want to change the world in the interests of the working class, and not just accept it as it is.
C. Hitchens isn’t always right, but he’s sure as hell right here:
http://www.slate.com/id/2129221
FlyingRodent said,
August 22, 2010 at 12:20 am
I’m genuinely sorry that you’ve been reduced to vulgar abuse, Rodent.
Facepalm. Says the man who left this comment at my place…
Jim Denham: Maenwhile, my position is straightforward: the Taliban are (rural) Nazis: you want them to win. Therefore you are a Nazi sympathiser. Plain enough for you. Rodent?
Well, fuck it – it’s probably not vulgar, but that’s far more offensive than anything I’ve accused you of and then proved beyond reasonable doubt, i.e. not knowing what the hell you’re talking about, being a bullshitter proud of his own deliberate ignorance, and revelling in the same kind of hazy democratic recklessness millions of us indulge in.
Quite what the fuck that comment about the bourgoisie is meant to mean, I have no idea, but I’ll leave you to play with your little toolbox of ideas.
jim denham said,
August 22, 2010 at 1:05 am
Rodent: I have admitted that that comment about you being a “Nazi sympathiser” was wrong and I am quite willing to apologise for it. It was out of order, not based upon the facts and written in the heat of the moment. I apologise.
However, your present grovelling “realist” crap is simply terrible. Your indifference to the fate of women and girls in Afghanistan is despicable.
If you don’t understand the stuff about the bourgeoisie, it’s presumably because you’re part of it, and like that class ever since the advent of capitalism, you cannot conceive of anything better.
Laban said,
August 22, 2010 at 8:43 am
“Your indifference to the fate of women and girls in Afghanistan is despicable.”
For the umpteenth time, can you not distinguish between a recognition of the limits of British power and a desire for/indifference to the ill-treatment of women in Afghanistan ?
I think you probably can, but choose not to – in order to tag those who disagree with you as Nazis etc – hoping to win the argument that way.
Don’t know about Marx, but you’ve certainly got Leninism off pretty well.
skidmarx said,
August 22, 2010 at 12:52 pm
First it’s Afghan not Afghani.
Second Brest-Litovsk, where the Bolsheviks decided that almost any price was worth it to stop fighting an imperialist war is a much more appropriate analogy than WWII or the October Revlolution. Also this is a useful counterweight to the one-size-fits-all concpetion of permanent offensive, such as Many still cherished the illusion that everything could be obtained by words and demonstrations.
SAEED said,
August 23, 2010 at 12:10 pm
rodent is right the afghan war is unwinnable
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/newstopics/onthefrontline/3139702/War-in-Afghanistan-cannot-be-won-British-commander-Brigadier-Mark-Carleton-Smith-warns.html
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/newstopics/onthefrontline/3139702/War-in-Afghanistan-cannot-be-won-British-commander-Brigadier-Mark-Carleton-Smith-warns.html
so how best to asecure womens rights in afghan?
read joyas ‘rasing my voice’…she offers some sensible ideas which need to be debated…
all we get from jim et al is ‘OMG you don’t support the war then you must be an appeaser’…..
Jenny said,
August 25, 2010 at 6:37 pm
There’s also this story from The Nation which says the women in the photograph actually had her nose cut off by her father in law:
http://www.thenation.com/article/154020/afghan-women-have-already-been-abandoned
resistor said,
December 7, 2010 at 9:58 pm
The reality of Max Dunbar’s illusions.
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-south-asia-11937681
7 December 2010
Arrest in case of Afghan teenager who had face maimed
Reports that the Taliban approved the attack have been found to be untrue, said the head of Afghanistan’s Independent Human Rights Commission in Uruzgan.
Abdul Ghafar told the BBC: “After a year’s investigation, we have found out that the Taliban were not behind this, as reported by the New York Times. This was a case of family violence, not the Taliban.”
Jim Denham said,
May 11, 2011 at 2:11 am
Adam Curtis thinks all reality is just a sham (as far as I can make out):
http://www.guardian.co.uk/commentisfree/2011/may/03/osama-bin-laden-soviet-union-baddie
“With Bin Laden’s death maybe the spell is broken. It does feel that we are at the end of a way of looking at the world that makes no real sense any longer. But the big question is where will the next story come from? And who will be the next baddie? The truth is that the stories are always constructed by those who have the power. Maybe the next big story won’t come from America. Or possibly the idea that America’s power is declining is actually the new simplistic fantasy of our age”…
Wow! We just don’t know where we stand, do we?
Fortunately, Prof Norm is on hand to bring some sanity to the situation:
http://normblog.typepad.com/normblog/2011/05/the-good-the-bad-and-adam-curtis.html