Workers Power’s weasel words on the holocaust
One of the most interesting debates at Workers Liberty’s ‘Ideas for Freedom’ event this weekend was the debate on Israel-Palestine. Camilla Bassi spoke for Workers Liberty and, imho, wiped the floor with the guy from WP – but I would say that wouldn’t I?
The WP speaker was, however, interesting for a number of reasons, not least because he started out by stating that he didn’t reject the idea of two states, or indeed a “Jewish state” in principle; but the present state of Israel is “not legitimate”, though he never explained what he meant by that.
But most interesting (and worrying) was his reference to ”the tendentious historiography of European anti-Semitism and the holocaust” that the Israeli state (allegedly) uses.
Any suggestions as to what exactly he could possibly have meant by this?
Mike Killingworth said,
July 12, 2010 at 5:43 pm
This might be a reference to the well-known practice of the Israeli government of arguing that anyone who criticises anything it does is therefore also a holocaust denier – I think in the mainstream press Melanie Phillips is an exponent of this line.
However I have no knowledge of why a WP speaker should agree or disagree with anything, really.
Mikey said,
July 12, 2010 at 5:45 pm
I concur. Camilla did wipe the floor with the chap from Workers Power. But I will go further: it was not just Camilla who was impressive, but most of the speakers from the floor from AWL. The arguments used seem to me to have become more sophisticated. I suspect that is because that Israel/Palestine has become the debate for AWL. I am not sure this is out of choice or whether it was forced upon them; I suspect the latter.
Boring commenter said,
July 13, 2010 at 9:28 am
My comments are being deleted because they’re too boring.
Boring commenter said,
July 13, 2010 at 9:28 am
My comments are being deleted because they’re too boring.
Jim Denham said,
July 13, 2010 at 11:09 am
Glad you think the holocaust is a suitable subject for “humour”, Eggface.
maxdunbar said,
July 13, 2010 at 11:34 am
Or ‘Resistor’ as he’s also known
martin ohr said,
July 13, 2010 at 12:37 pm
a few things I noted from the debate were:
1) the tone of the WP speaker was radically different from the WP literature; civilised, measured and his argument on support for Hamas was one you definitely wouldn’t find in the pages of WP
2) It was a shame the session wasn’t longer, no-one got chance to take up the idea that a consumer boycott was a better tactic that solidarity with workers in struggle for example
3) agree that AWL wiped the floor with him. I look forward to reading the transcript of the WP guys summary, particularly his description of why WP don’t oppose Australian imperialism, I’m not sure that I heard correctly because of the room laughing heartily
Boring commenter said,
July 14, 2010 at 8:47 am
My comments are being deleted because they’re too boring.
sackcloth and ashes said,
July 14, 2010 at 9:01 am
And which ‘Viz’ character would you be, EOYF? Aldridge Prior, the Useless Liar? Billy Britain? Or Lenny Left? Or maybe a combination of the three?
Boring commenter said,
July 14, 2010 at 9:17 am
My comments are being deleted because they’re too boring (and nasty and stupid).
Julie Carr said,
July 14, 2010 at 9:35 am
Thank you for the report. I have had occasion to bump into these people before and have always thought them a little suspect if not down right anti-semitic. Now they are flirting with holocaust denial. No surprise there. I don’t think you should be sharing a platform with these people again even if on this occasion it worked to winkle out their jew baiting tendencies.
Jewish WP member said,
September 22, 2010 at 9:47 pm
Hey, Julie Carr – there was no hint of ‘flirting with holocaust denial’ about it – unless you think a Workers Power speaker observing that there are competing narratives about the meaning of the holocaust is anti-Semitic, in which case you are a) stupid, b) a libeller or c) an outright Zionist bigot.
Let’s make it clear in case you didn’t get it: Zionists say the Holocaust means Jews need a state in Palestine to stop it happening again; Marxists say a Jewish state in Palestine denies Palestinian rights, and that a nation which oppresses another can never be free (Marx).
Jew baiting? You are sick or a liar if you think Workers Power have ever engaged in that. Substantiate or withdraw.
sackcloth and ashes said,
July 14, 2010 at 9:47 am
Was that supposed to be a comeback, EOYF? Roger Irrelevant would have made more sense.
Boring commenter said,
July 14, 2010 at 11:15 am
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James Bloodworth said,
July 14, 2010 at 12:50 pm
“The WP speaker was, however, interesting for a number of reasons, not least because he started out by stating that he didn’t reject the idea of…a “Jewish state” in principle;”
I fail to see what is wrong with a rejection of a “Jewish state” “in principle” as opposed to a state for Jews. Is it not possible to reject the idea of all religious states, without having to face the accusation that one is somehow anti-Jew?
Israel has not always been about the construction of a “Jewish state”, and in the past had many important Jewish advocates who took the far more admirable secular position of bulding Israel as a state for the Jews as opposed to a religiously-based entity.
martin ohr said,
July 14, 2010 at 2:19 pm
you can read a transcript of the opening speeches on the awl website: http://www.workersliberty.org/story/2010/07/13/israel-palestine-what-should-left-say
as I said, looking forward to reading the summations when they are transcribed.
Jim Denham said,
July 14, 2010 at 9:07 pm
Transcript of the two main contributions:
http://www.workersliberty.org/story/2010/07/13/israel-palestine-what-should-left-say
Offended said,
July 15, 2010 at 2:25 pm
I think Shiraz should actually read the fucking transcript before accusing WP members of holocaust revisionism. Fuck you Shiraz, you mud-slinging dicktip.
charliethechulo said,
July 15, 2010 at 9:50 pm
Offended: you should actually read the fucking article: it doesn’t accuse Workers Power of anything. It merely quotes the speaker’s own words (accurately) and asks readers to make suggestions as to what he actually meant. If you think the logical conclusion to draw is that of “holocaust revisionism”, that’s your own conclusion on the basis of the evidence provided.
Boring commenter said,
July 18, 2010 at 3:49 pm
Boring, boring, boring, boring, boring, boring, boring, boring, boring, boring, boring, boring, boring, boring, boring, boring, boring, boring, boring, boring, boring, boring, boring, boring, boring, boring, boring, boring, boring, boring, boring, boring, boring, boring, boring, boring, boring, boring, boring, boring, boring, boring, boring, boring, boring, boring, boring, boring, boring, boring, boring, boring, boring, boring, boring, boring, boring, boring, boring, boring, boring, boring, boring, boring, boring, boring, boring, boring, boring.
(It takes less than a moment for me to do this, and probably longer than that for Eggy/Resistor to devise and write his comments. Maybe think about whether this is a good use of your time. Ed.)
charliethechulo said,
July 18, 2010 at 6:48 pm
Egg-brains sez:
“And on this Stalinist blog, you are not even allowed to take the piss out of the drunken antics of Jim Venom, the mad pisshead who runs it.”
Egg-brains: when have we ever stopped you (or anyone else) taking the piss out of Denham?
Egg-brains sez: “If you are in the habit of making such allegations to people face to face, as opposed to in the blogosphere, I suggest you keep counting your teeth just to make sure they are still all there.”
Egg-brians: I understand that Denham tells such people exactly what he thinks of them, in person, quite frequently.
Egg/Resistor said,
July 18, 2010 at 8:36 pm
Boring, predictable response
charliethechulo said,
July 18, 2010 at 9:18 pm
Eggy-brains:
” Anyway, if Denham does abuse people to their face I suppose he gets away with it the way some street drunks do – everyone assumes he hasn’t a clue what he’s saying and won’t remember a thing the next day. I suppose his biggest danger is if he spouts forth to one of his fellow drunks – then he might be in deep shit.”
Make up your mind, you twat.
Egg Resistor said,
July 18, 2010 at 9:26 pm
Boring, predictable response
charliethechulo said,
July 18, 2010 at 9:29 pm
Make up your mind, twat.
Resisting Eggs said,
July 18, 2010 at 9:33 pm
Boring, predictable response
charliethechulo said,
July 18, 2010 at 9:37 pm
You a bit thick, or what, egg-brains?
Egg Resistor said,
July 18, 2010 at 9:40 pm
Boring, predictable response
Egg Resistor said,
July 19, 2010 at 2:39 pm
Hey baby, I hear the blues a-callin’,
Tossed salad and scrambled eggs
Oh My
Mercy (alt: Quite stylish.)
And maybe I seem a bit confused,
Yeah maybe, but I got you pegged!
Ha, Ha, Ha, Ha!
But I don’t know what to do with those tossed salads and scrambled eggs.
They’re callin’ again.
(Resistor has left the building)