I imagine he was drunk when he posted it. It appears that he thinks that the South Koreans are cruelly trying to frame those wonderful, peace-loving North Koreans.
So he thinks the South Koreans framed the North Koreans and believes that they torpedoed their own ship? Why? To provoke a war with North Korea that would devastate their own country?
What this has to do with the Gaza flotilla, I have no idea.
Although I comdemn Israel’s actions, you do have to wonder what rationally the flotilla members thought would happen when they tried to break what they describe as ‘a siege’ conducted by what they describe as one of the most heavily armed and agressive states in the world. Did they think the Israeli navy would have a nice drinks party for them and stamp their passports?
I imagine they thought that their ship would be seized; I doubt they thought that it would be stormed by utter incompetents whose idiocy would result in 9 or so of their number being shot dead. Just a guess though.
“Or having a humanitarian aid ship attacked by armed commando’s of a terrorist racist state?”
That would be “commandos” Steve. But seriously, what possible justifications do Israeli attacks on aid ships offer the insane Baby Kim for his antics? Or were you just gibbering?
Did they think the Israeli navy would have a nice drinks party for them and stamp their passports?
You might think that would inspire people to have more respect for them, no? I always thought that doing what you think is right, even at serious danger of personal harm, was seen as a good thing.
I mean, there’s not a million miles between “did they think the Israelis would offer them tea and biscuits” or whatever, to “What was (x) thinking publishing that book when he knew (y) would go mental” or “What did that bloke think that Chinese tank column was going to do? Reverse?” They both sort of half-exonerate the perpetrator and shift blame onto the deceased.
I think it’s pretty insane that this is what it’s come to, though. Surely the list of actions you can take that will result in agents of treaty-bound democracy (x) shooting you four times in the head at point-blank range should pretty limited.
If we’re now accepting that “Being part of an aid convoy/PR stunt in international waters under the flag of a nominal ally” is now considered an act of provocation so extreme that you’re sort of asking to have your skull perforated, then somebody somewhere has fucked up, I think.
“If we’re now accepting that “Being part of an aid convoy/PR stunt in international waters under the flag of a nominal ally” is now considered an act of provocation so extreme that you’re sort of asking to have your skull perforated, then somebody somewhere has fucked up, I think.”
I would imagine only a maniac would disagree. To be (a little) pedantic though, the ship — while manned by Turks — was under the colours of the Comoros Islands.
Zionists… CIA… north korea… gulf of Tonkin… more Zionists…. Vietnam war… murderous… (slips a gear)… Laws affair… Alaister Campbell… (gets back in the saddle)… Weapons of mass destruction… Iraq… Rwandan genocide…
I am guessing that North Korea, already under strict sanctions (though Tom seems ignorant of these facts) will face further consequences if its attack on the South Korean ship is proved true.
Contrast that with Israel who will yet again get away with high crimes and will be further emboldened to commit further crimes against humanity in the future.
Steve, if that is what you think Pilger is saying then you may wish to re-read his “article”. He purports that NK is, in fact, blameless and the victim of a Gulf of Tonkin style stitch up. The only people who think this are the stalinist nutters who go in for weird Juche Study Groups and North Korea Friendship Societies, O, and Pilger.
If; however, you are simply expressing your own view that Israel is given a free hand to do as she wishes while other states are (rightly) not; then I agree. Of course if NK commandos had shot dead a handful of activists in international waters as part of a botched raid that country would be held to a much higher standard than Israel.
The only people who think this are the stalinist nutters who go in for weird Juche Study Groups and North Korea Friendship Societies, O, and Pilger.
And a lot of South Koreans. As reported by that purveyor of pink Juche, the FT: http://www.atimes.com/atimes/Korea/LE26Dg01.html
Wouldn’t paranoid south koreans be more likely to blame the north? Or maybe being closer to the scene and not having your uncritical attitude towards imperialism they are more sceptical.
Perhaps the “conspiracy theorists” are wrong, but it’s worth keeping an open mind.
Perhaps the “conspiracy theorists” are wrong, but it’s worth keeping an open mind.
Perhaps they’re right, but the evidence we have, and what we know about the North Korean government’s past actions suggest otherwise. The regime possessed the means, and the motive – revenge for the sinking of an NK ship in a previous skirmish with the South.
Interesting article, though I had a hard time finding even a Marxist with anything nice to say about East Germany he obviously never met Andy Newman.
what we know about the North Korean government’s past actions suggest otherwise. What we “know” about the US’ past actions suggest that we shouldn’t believe things just because they say them about a crazy person. Who would have believed that Comical Ali was telling the truth about the WMDs. Even if North Korea did this, one suggestion is that of a “fat finger” accident.
“Contrast that with Israel who will yet again get away with high crimes and will be further emboldened to commit further crimes against humanity in the future.”
Crimes against humanity!?
But anyway, I think you have it in reverse. If a group of activitists in oppostion to the N Korean government had attempted to enter N Korean waters in order to supply the political opposition with food and medical aid, had refused to turn away when ordered and had then attacked bording North Korean forces with clubs and pipes when they boarded, I doubt there would have been massive denunciation of the Korean forces if they had shot dead a group of the protesters and arrested and held the others for 48 hours. People would criticised the act, but there would have been lots of defence of N Korea, understanding of their situation, comments about how the activists were inviting trouble etc. There would have been no talk about piracy, kidnapping or crimes against humanity.
Article 7 of the treaty establsihing the ICC]stated that:
For the purpose of this Statute, “crime against humanity” means any of the following acts when committed as part of a widespread or systematic attack directed against any civilian population, with knowledge of the attack[17]:
(a) Murder;
(b) Extermination;
(c) Enslavement;
(d) Deportation or forcible transfer of population;
(e) Imprisonment or other severe deprivation of physical liberty in violation of fundamental rules of international law;
(f) Torture;
(g) Rape, sexual slavery, enforced prostitution, forced pregnancy, enforced sterilization, or any other form of sexual violence of comparable gravity;
(h) Persecution against any identifiable group or collectivity on political, racial, national, ethnic, cultural, religious, gender as defined in paragraph 3, or other grounds that are universally recognized as impermissible under international law, in connection with any act referred to in this paragraph or any crime within the jurisdiction of the Court;
(i) Enforced disappearance of persons;
(j) The crime of apartheid;
(k) Other inhumane acts of a similar character intentionally causing great suffering, or serious injury to body or to mental or physical health.
I think Israel may be guilty under (a),(d),(e),(f),(h),(j) and (k).
When has the US allowed the UN security council to allow any condemnation of Israel? Where are the sanctions? Where is the chapter 7 enforcement?
John Meredith writes, ‘If a group of activitists in oppostion to the N Korean government had attempted to enter N Korean waters’
Missing the fact the flotilla was in international waters and had no intent to enter Israeli waters, but was sailing to the port of Gaza entering through Palestinian territorial waters.
Does John Meredith believe that Israel owns the sea off the coast of Gaza?
‘I think Israel may be guilty under (a),(d),(e),(f),(h),(j) and (k).’
Oh, so you’re an expert on international law, as well as (as far as I can see from your posts here and on HP) the law of armed conflict and the history of the Middle East?
Jenny said,
June 8, 2010 at 12:29 am
I think he’s saying North Korea shooting at South Korea is a lie and can be compared to the gulf of tonkiin incident, but it’s all jumbled.
Tom said,
June 8, 2010 at 2:26 am
I imagine he was drunk when he posted it. It appears that he thinks that the South Koreans are cruelly trying to frame those wonderful, peace-loving North Koreans.
Rebecca said,
June 8, 2010 at 4:14 am
So he thinks the South Koreans framed the North Koreans and believes that they torpedoed their own ship? Why? To provoke a war with North Korea that would devastate their own country?
What this has to do with the Gaza flotilla, I have no idea.
maxdunbar said,
June 8, 2010 at 5:11 am
You can actually see him, about two thirds of the way through, losing his train of thought and then realising he has a certain wordcount to meet
GG said,
June 8, 2010 at 12:17 pm
Yes typical Shiraz and their army of cunts, ridiculing the great John Pilger.
Tom said,
June 8, 2010 at 6:25 pm
Great analysis! Let me guess, you’re a Swoppy?
David D. said,
June 8, 2010 at 1:04 pm
“the great John Pilger”…
What are the words to that song? I’ve forgotten…
skidmarx said,
June 8, 2010 at 1:25 pm
That favoured states and people are allowed to get away with actions that they prosecute others for ?
Shouldn’t be that hard to work out.
martin ohr said,
June 8, 2010 at 4:42 pm
“favoured people” !?
Although I comdemn Israel’s actions, you do have to wonder what rationally the flotilla members thought would happen when they tried to break what they describe as ‘a siege’ conducted by what they describe as one of the most heavily armed and agressive states in the world. Did they think the Israeli navy would have a nice drinks party for them and stamp their passports?
Tom said,
June 8, 2010 at 9:54 pm
I imagine they thought that their ship would be seized; I doubt they thought that it would be stormed by utter incompetents whose idiocy would result in 9 or so of their number being shot dead. Just a guess though.
Harry Tuttle said,
June 8, 2010 at 3:29 pm
Pilger is wrong about the Cheonan. More info can be found here.
Tom said,
June 8, 2010 at 4:38 pm
“That favoured states and people are allowed to get away with actions that they prosecute others for ?”
Like having a ship torpedoed by the armed forces of a maniacal despot?
Steve said,
June 8, 2010 at 7:07 pm
“Like having a ship torpedoed by the armed forces of a maniacal despot?”
Or having a humanitarian aid ship attacked by armed commando’s of a terrorist racist state?
Tom said,
June 8, 2010 at 8:01 pm
“Or having a humanitarian aid ship attacked by armed commando’s of a terrorist racist state?”
That would be “commandos” Steve. But seriously, what possible justifications do Israeli attacks on aid ships offer the insane Baby Kim for his antics? Or were you just gibbering?
FlyingRodent said,
June 8, 2010 at 9:49 pm
Did they think the Israeli navy would have a nice drinks party for them and stamp their passports?
You might think that would inspire people to have more respect for them, no? I always thought that doing what you think is right, even at serious danger of personal harm, was seen as a good thing.
I mean, there’s not a million miles between “did they think the Israelis would offer them tea and biscuits” or whatever, to “What was (x) thinking publishing that book when he knew (y) would go mental” or “What did that bloke think that Chinese tank column was going to do? Reverse?” They both sort of half-exonerate the perpetrator and shift blame onto the deceased.
I think it’s pretty insane that this is what it’s come to, though. Surely the list of actions you can take that will result in agents of treaty-bound democracy (x) shooting you four times in the head at point-blank range should pretty limited.
If we’re now accepting that “Being part of an aid convoy/PR stunt in international waters under the flag of a nominal ally” is now considered an act of provocation so extreme that you’re sort of asking to have your skull perforated, then somebody somewhere has fucked up, I think.
Tom said,
June 8, 2010 at 9:52 pm
“If we’re now accepting that “Being part of an aid convoy/PR stunt in international waters under the flag of a nominal ally” is now considered an act of provocation so extreme that you’re sort of asking to have your skull perforated, then somebody somewhere has fucked up, I think.”
I would imagine only a maniac would disagree. To be (a little) pedantic though, the ship — while manned by Turks — was under the colours of the Comoros Islands.
charliethechulo said,
June 8, 2010 at 11:06 pm
Pilger – once a serious journalist – lost it a long while ago.
This, over at Dave’s, is worth readng: Kurdistan compared with Palestine:
http://www.davidosler.com/2010/06/the-parallels-between-palestine-and-kurdistan/
badnewswade said,
June 9, 2010 at 1:00 am
That was like something out of Private Eye
Zionists… CIA… north korea… gulf of Tonkin… more Zionists…. Vietnam war… murderous… (slips a gear)… Laws affair… Alaister Campbell… (gets back in the saddle)… Weapons of mass destruction… Iraq… Rwandan genocide…
skidmarx said,
June 9, 2010 at 12:57 pm
And that’s just Billy Joel. All fires are equal, but some are more equal than others.
skidmarx said,
June 9, 2010 at 12:58 pm
Sorry wrong link|:
Steve said,
June 9, 2010 at 11:33 am
I am guessing that North Korea, already under strict sanctions (though Tom seems ignorant of these facts) will face further consequences if its attack on the South Korean ship is proved true.
Contrast that with Israel who will yet again get away with high crimes and will be further emboldened to commit further crimes against humanity in the future.
Tom said,
June 9, 2010 at 5:56 pm
Steve, if that is what you think Pilger is saying then you may wish to re-read his “article”. He purports that NK is, in fact, blameless and the victim of a Gulf of Tonkin style stitch up. The only people who think this are the stalinist nutters who go in for weird Juche Study Groups and North Korea Friendship Societies, O, and Pilger.
If; however, you are simply expressing your own view that Israel is given a free hand to do as she wishes while other states are (rightly) not; then I agree. Of course if NK commandos had shot dead a handful of activists in international waters as part of a botched raid that country would be held to a much higher standard than Israel.
skidmarx said,
June 10, 2010 at 10:50 am
The only people who think this are the stalinist nutters who go in for weird Juche Study Groups and North Korea Friendship Societies, O, and Pilger.
And a lot of South Koreans. As reported by that purveyor of pink Juche, the FT:
http://www.atimes.com/atimes/Korea/LE26Dg01.html
Harry Tuttle said,
June 10, 2010 at 11:45 am
skidmarx -
So stalinist nutters and paranoid South Koreans then. Pilger is in fine company.
skidmarx said,
June 10, 2010 at 3:00 pm
Wouldn’t paranoid south koreans be more likely to blame the north? Or maybe being closer to the scene and not having your uncritical attitude towards imperialism they are more sceptical.
Perhaps the “conspiracy theorists” are wrong, but it’s worth keeping an open mind.
Harry Tuttle said,
June 10, 2010 at 4:11 pm
Wouldn’t paranoid south koreans be more likely to blame the north?
If you have a chance, read the following article, I think you may find it illuminating:
http://www.nytimes.com/2010/05/28/opinion/28myers.html
Perhaps the “conspiracy theorists” are wrong, but it’s worth keeping an open mind.
Perhaps they’re right, but the evidence we have, and what we know about the North Korean government’s past actions suggest otherwise. The regime possessed the means, and the motive – revenge for the sinking of an NK ship in a previous skirmish with the South.
skidmarx said,
June 11, 2010 at 10:03 am
Interesting article, though I had a hard time finding even a Marxist with anything nice to say about East Germany he obviously never met Andy Newman.
what we know about the North Korean government’s past actions suggest otherwise. What we “know” about the US’ past actions suggest that we shouldn’t believe things just because they say them about a crazy person. Who would have believed that Comical Ali was telling the truth about the WMDs. Even if North Korea did this, one suggestion is that of a “fat finger” accident.
Will said,
June 9, 2010 at 10:47 pm
http://normblog.typepad.com/normblog/2010/06/israel-and-north-korea.html
John Meredith said,
June 10, 2010 at 12:48 pm
“Contrast that with Israel who will yet again get away with high crimes and will be further emboldened to commit further crimes against humanity in the future.”
Crimes against humanity!?
But anyway, I think you have it in reverse. If a group of activitists in oppostion to the N Korean government had attempted to enter N Korean waters in order to supply the political opposition with food and medical aid, had refused to turn away when ordered and had then attacked bording North Korean forces with clubs and pipes when they boarded, I doubt there would have been massive denunciation of the Korean forces if they had shot dead a group of the protesters and arrested and held the others for 48 hours. People would criticised the act, but there would have been lots of defence of N Korea, understanding of their situation, comments about how the activists were inviting trouble etc. There would have been no talk about piracy, kidnapping or crimes against humanity.
skidmarx said,
June 10, 2010 at 3:08 pm
Crimes against humanity.
Article 7 of the treaty establsihing the ICC]stated that:
For the purpose of this Statute, “crime against humanity” means any of the following acts when committed as part of a widespread or systematic attack directed against any civilian population, with knowledge of the attack[17]:
(a) Murder;
(b) Extermination;
(c) Enslavement;
(d) Deportation or forcible transfer of population;
(e) Imprisonment or other severe deprivation of physical liberty in violation of fundamental rules of international law;
(f) Torture;
(g) Rape, sexual slavery, enforced prostitution, forced pregnancy, enforced sterilization, or any other form of sexual violence of comparable gravity;
(h) Persecution against any identifiable group or collectivity on political, racial, national, ethnic, cultural, religious, gender as defined in paragraph 3, or other grounds that are universally recognized as impermissible under international law, in connection with any act referred to in this paragraph or any crime within the jurisdiction of the Court;
(i) Enforced disappearance of persons;
(j) The crime of apartheid;
(k) Other inhumane acts of a similar character intentionally causing great suffering, or serious injury to body or to mental or physical health.
I think Israel may be guilty under (a),(d),(e),(f),(h),(j) and (k).
When has the US allowed the UN security council to allow any condemnation of Israel? Where are the sanctions? Where is the chapter 7 enforcement?
John Meredith said,
June 11, 2010 at 8:29 am
“I think Israel may be guilty under (a),(d),(e),(f),(h),(j) and (k).”
Yes, but no raational person would. Especially with respect to the flotilla kilolings.
resistor said,
June 12, 2010 at 1:25 am
John Meredith writes, ‘If a group of activitists in oppostion to the N Korean government had attempted to enter N Korean waters’
Missing the fact the flotilla was in international waters and had no intent to enter Israeli waters, but was sailing to the port of Gaza entering through Palestinian territorial waters.
Does John Meredith believe that Israel owns the sea off the coast of Gaza?
maxdunbar said,
June 12, 2010 at 11:13 am
Resistor
Did you ghost Pilger’s article?
resistor said,
June 12, 2010 at 1:57 pm
Still cheering on the IDF Max?
sackcloth and ashes said,
June 13, 2010 at 9:24 pm
Still being a brownshirt wanker, reSSistor?
Stupid question, I know, but worth asking.
‘I think Israel may be guilty under (a),(d),(e),(f),(h),(j) and (k).’
Oh, so you’re an expert on international law, as well as (as far as I can see from your posts here and on HP) the law of armed conflict and the history of the Middle East?
Fuck off, Skidmark, There are adults on this net.
resistor said,
June 13, 2010 at 10:56 pm
Sack of Shit writes,
‘There are adults on this net.’
Not including you as are obviously a supporter of the IDF murderers.
By the way, are you a Betar Brownshirt?
Will said,
June 13, 2010 at 11:51 pm
reeshitster — shorter version; “hate tha Jews — kill them all. Hitler was right.”
resistor said,
June 14, 2010 at 9:07 am
Will is projecting his darkest desires on others again. Seek help Will.