Congratulations, Israel!

November 30, 2007 at 9:38 pm (israel, Jim D, liberation, palestine)

Yesterday (November 29th) was the 60th anniversary of the foundation of the state of Israel. To be more precise, it was the 60th anniversary of the UN Partition Plan for Palestine (General Assembly Resolution 181), which decreed that the old British mandate territory  should be partitioned into a Jewish state (55 per cent) and an Arab state (45 per cent). The Arab bourgeoisie rejected this, and all the surrounding Arab states launched a war aimed at destroying at birth the state of Israel. Britain and the US placed an arms embargo  on Israel, which would have meant its destruction at the hands of its Arab enemies: were it not for the USSR and Czechoslovakia, who supplied the arms that Israel used to fight for its survival, the Jewish state would have been strangled at birth by Hitler’s supporters, the Arab bourgeoisie.

Thus Israel survived its war of national liberation, and has gone on to defy and defeat the anti-semitic states that surround it. That does not excuse its shameful treatment of the Palestinians, but it does place it in some kind of context. It is also why all socialists should back a “two-state” solution, and not give in to the hopeless idealism and/or despair that is all too common on the left…never mind the self-pitying, self-righteous nihilism that middle-class Palestinian ex-pats regularly get away with.

94 Comments

  1. Lobby Ludd said,

    “Thus Israel survived its war of national liberation…..”

    Well, that’s certainly a unique take.

    I’m quite a fan of alternative history type science fiction, too.

  2. charliethechulo said,

    So how is it wrong, Lobby? Pray, do explain what Denham’s got wrong?

  3. resistor said,

    A refugee is not an ‘ex-pat’. To call a refugee an ‘ex-pat’ is to deny their suffering, in this case, purely on the grounds of their race. I’d like to know why Denham’s naked racism is tolerated on this site and by the AWL.

  4. Jim Denham said,

    For somer reason, my link to Dave’s Part isn’t working: so use the link on the right to reach dave’s blog, and then scroll down “Annapolis: Oslo for slow learners”.

  5. Jim Denham said,

    Fuck off, you anti-semite, “resistor”: I’d be willing to debate a reasonable person who disagreed with my analysis, but not anti-semitic scum like you.

  6. resistor said,

    Denham refuses to debate with anyone who challenges his support of racism, either in Israel or when espoused by Martin Amis. I doubt he is capable of anything more than vulgar abuse and outright fabrications.

    By the way, his childish Janet and John /Ladybird history of Israeli history is one that even Shlomo Ben-Ami, former foreign minister of Israel, has refuted.

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Scars_of_War,_Wounds_of_Peace:_The_Israeli-Arab_Tragedy

  7. Jim Denham said,

    I have nothing to say to anti-semitic scum.

  8. resistor said,

    I thought you couldn’t defend 60 years of ethnic cleansing, dispossession, racism, aggressive war, conquest and occupation. Mindless insults and lying accusations are more your style.

    ps How funny of you to use ‘middle-class’ as an insult to someone who became a university academic having been a refugee, driven from her home by Fascists. I suppose it makes you feel better as a washed up pub drummer in a minstrel band.

  9. Jim Denham said,

    Fuck off, fash! I’ve nothing to say to fash scum.

  10. resistor said,

    I think you’ve hit rock bottom and now you’re just bouncing.

  11. Lobby Ludd said,

    Charliethechulo, just to keep things simple:

    Look at the history of the creation of the state of Israel, and compare it to to say ‘wars of national liberation’ like the Vietnam v France, or actions in India versus the British.

    Can’t you spot the difference? That difference abides, whether or not you believe that the creation of Israel was a positive thing.

    The creation of the state of Israel did not come about by a subject people driving out a colonial power from their land – unless, of course, you believe that that particular part of the middle east is, somehow, a reserved place for those of the Jewish faith.

  12. Jim Denham said,

    No, Lobby: the creation of the stae of Israel arose from a persecuted people seeking a homeland, and being denied that by anti-semitic Hitler-supporting Islamic fundamentalists and Arab-nationalist opportunists, who have used the Palestinians as pawns in their anti-semitic game ever since.

  13. modernityblog said,

    lobby,

    you argue that Vietnam versus France was a war of liberation, equally Indians versus the British Empire?

    do you believe that there is only one form of national liberation? and that has to follow some set plan?

    I’m surprised, because except on this particular subject, you don’t appear such a rigid thinker

  14. capacitor said,

    Would the antisemites on this thread please drop the pretense of anti-Zionist?

    Some of us see through your crap — you just want less pesky jews on the planet.

    Come clean now!

  15. Lobby Ludd said,

    Modernity, no, I do not think that wars of liberation should follow a set plan. That is why I cited Vietnam and India.

    Jim, because the Jews in Europe were a persecuted minority does not mean that the solution to their persecution lies in the creation of a homeland in the middle east. That is the Zionist solution, not a socialist one.

    Would you suggest that the solution to the persecution of black people in the USA demanded the creation of separate states in the USA, or the ‘return’ tto Ethiopea?

  16. modernityblog said,

    Lobby,

    socialist solution for the Middle East

    is it like a recipe, you wait around until you’ve got all the ingredients are just right and then BANG, your “socialist solution” appears:

    1) the 21 Arab states move from varying degrees of feudalism quickly through modern capitalism and onto the proletarian dictatorship
    2) at the same time in Palestine, the residents (from all ethnic, religious and social backgrounds) are galvanised by thoughts of the dictatorship of the proletariat
    3) this process takes place between August 1945 and November 1948 in a glorious permanent revolution
    4) Lo and behold the Federated socialist states of Middle East are created
    5) everyone lives happily ever after

    is that it???

    outside the Eastern bloc where has such a solution even been tried?

    None

    and yet socialists don’t moan about the creation of the Irish free State, which involved the working-class turning on itself over petty bourgeois nationalism?

    again socialists don’t moan about the creation of the post WW1 states (Syria, Saudi, etc) in the Middle East?

    why is that?

  17. Abe Bird said,

    Two states solution is the best solution….. if….. Palestine will be in what we call Jordan and Israel will be all the areas western to the Jordan river, which will be the border between these states.

    The Arabs in Palestine have their own state since 1922. Jordan contains about 80% of Palestinian Arabs next to the Bedouin-Saudi Arabs and the king’s family. When the Arab refugees will return to their state in Jordan they will be about 98% of the citizens of their national state. I think that this fair enough to all.

    Arabs in Palestine and Israel will be Palestinian citizens and will vote the the Parliament in Amman. Jews will vote the the Knesset in Jerusalem.

  18. Abe Bird said,

    Lobby Ludd

    Socialism or not, thta wouldn’t force the Jews to give up their rights to have their own national state on their own national soil and assets.

    The land of Israel is not the land of Israel just because Jews were persecuted in Europe but because that land is the historical and actual land of Israel. Jews didn’t leave that land even when more than 30 peoples occupied their land. The fact that more than 30 foreign nations invaded the land of Israel doesn’t make that land of the conquerors. Jews always lived in the land of Israel. Only foreign conquerors prevented from them the natural right to own their national land. The fact that those Arabs succeeded to conquer and rule other 20 states doesn’t mean that Jews should surrender to their bloody wishes to have Israel land too. Add to that the fact that the Arabs in the land of Israel, aka Palestine, have already a Palestinian state called Jordan.

    Lobby Ludd, if you think that Israel’s land is an Arab’s land because they have been conquered the land, so why don’t you think that the land is now Jewish land because the Jews re-conquered it? elementary!

    Add the fact that historicaly always there were Jews there living under foreign invasions and conquerors, and they sure have the rights to implement their prerogative to the land when they have their power to do so.

  19. capacitor said,

    That Osler thread has a vicious antisemite sticking up for the jew killing tendencey. What a surprise. Not.

    Take sides people. jew killers or not — which side are you on?

  20. Jim Denham said,

    Lobby: as a matter of fact, Leon Trotsky gave very serious consideration to exactly the “solution” to the “US black question” that you’ve outlined; finally (after discussions with James P. Cannon), he rejected the idea of a seperate black state in the US; but only after lengthy discussion and much thought. In other words, for Trotsky, it wasn’t a simple matter, or an open-and-shut case. Particularly since Mound Bayou already existed.

  21. capacitor said,

    fuck trotsky — think for yourself!

  22. modernityblog said,

    will/capacitor,

    please don’t have a go at Dave Osler

    I asked him NOT to delete MacTrousers’ filth, to see how people would react to it

    and as we can now see by MacTrousers recent replies that it is obvious that he is a jew hating crank

    but what is more interesting is how many people, HAVEN’T picked up on it

    and when I point out the obvious anti-Jewish racism in his statements it is me that gets attacked, not MacTrousers, at Dave Osler’s

    given the number of people who must have read the thread at Dave’s it just shows you the decline in politics and parts of the Left when people can’t spot such blatant anti-Jewish racism as MacTrousers’ epitomises

  23. resistor said,

    ‘Capacitor’ writes, Some of us see through your crap — you just want less pesky jews on the planet.

    The more and the peskier the better my ‘friend’,

    Well, unlike Capacitor and the State of Israel I’d like to see more Jews in Britain, Israel/Palestine, the world, and especially Germany. The final victory over Hitler would see a German Jewish population in greater numbers than when he began his campaign for a racially ‘pure’ state. Why the Zionists want to complete Hitler’s work is an interesting question.

  24. tim said,

    I think you’ll find Hitler “work” was to kill all Jews.
    How are Zionists completing that?

  25. capacitor said,

    You (well meaning) thick fuckers here at Shiraz need to implement a final solution for your comments.

    Delete reshitter on sight.

    You are providing a platform. So stop it.

  26. modernityblog said,

    one thing that certainly is a little bit annoying about any post on the Middle East, and in particular Israel, is the lack of dialogue in the comments

    invariably you’ll find a few contrarian views, a few slogans, some ready made dogma and of course, a few Jew hating nutjobs like resistor

    perhaps once or twice an informed comment but rarely does the quality of the comments stretch to full-fledged dialogue, with logical and reasoned arguments on both sides

    which is a shame, because I suspect people’s time would have been better spent studying the Middle East than the Russian Revolution, for the lessons it teaches us about humanity

  27. Paul said,

    Are you freaking insane? A “socialist” celebrating the ethnic cleansing which gave rise to the terrorist state of Israel?

    Shouldn’t you be posting this crap at David Horrowitz’s site: http://www.frontpagemag.com ?

    While a socialist can still hold a position in support of the 2 state solution, your post borders on absolute stupidity and without a shred of social and historical context. Now tell me, if marx were alive today would he dare right an article on the rise of the Israeli state without having front and center Israeli’s key role as projecting US military power in the Middle East?

  28. Dr Paul said,

    It is indeed odd for a socialist to ‘congratulate’ Israel on its sixtieth birthday, but not at all unprecedented. Around two years back I was doing some research on the reaction in Britain to Khrushchev’s ‘Secret Speech’ of 1956, going through Tribune and Socialist Commentary (an extinct right-wing Labour journal), and what hit me was the coverage of Israel. Both left-wing and right-wing Labourites could be found praising Israel in true fellow-traveller style, as if it was a socialist state.

    And of course, the Stalinists also praised it in the late 1940s, but that was obeying instructions from head office.

    One can be, as I certainly am, very critical of the Arab rulers, who use the Palestinians as a diversionary tactic when facing domestic opposition, and of the various Palestinian leaderships, who have shown their political bankruptcy time and again. But with what we know now about how Israel was set up and how it has treated the Palestinians over the years, no sensible socialist would ‘congratulate’ Israel. I would congratulate the Israeli dissidents who are fighting for social justice for the populations of Palestine and Israel; they are the ones who need supporting.

  29. modernityblog said,

    Dr. Paul wrote:

    But with what we know now about how Israel was set up and how it has treated the Palestinians over the years, no sensible socialist would ‘congratulate’ Israel.

    You make an interesting point, socialists and the benefit of hindsight

    Based on the above, should any sensible socialist have congratulated the USSR?

    Should any sensible socialist have welcomed the October Revolution, which eventually led to Stalinist regimes across Eastern Europe and the discrediting of socialist ideas?

    Should any sensible socialist congratulate the various incarnations of the Fourth International? For wasting so much time, effort and achieving precious little?

    Should any sensible socialist congratulate the participants in the Cairo conferences?

    Should any sensible socialist congratulate Hezbollah and its leader Sheikh Hassan Nasrallah?

    Finally, should “socialists” and others congratulate themselves for not seeing the threat to European Jewry that was posed by Hitler’s regime?

    So Dr. Paul, what do you think?

  30. jason s. said,

    Why would socialists congratulate any bourgeois state?

  31. paddygarcia said,

    This is what we need to sort Israel out:

  32. modernityblog said,

    so Paddy Garcia recommends bombing Israel, and nuking her off the planet?

    Paddy, how’s your Green shirt?

    you are a contemptible fuckwit and there’s no denying it

  33. voltaires_priest said,

    Paddy, be a good lad and fack orf, if you can’t think of anything sensible to say.

  34. paddygarcia said,

    This is cool too, nice soundtrack:

    The wonders of a planned economy producing such awsome cool aircraft and bombs.
    If only Iran had such hardware, the yanks and zionists wouldn,t dare threaten them.
    Yes should sort out Israel good and proper only 1st strike needed.

  35. paddygarcia said,

    You guys fall straight for the bait don’t you? Soo predictable aren’t you?
    Sadly the left sometimes lacks a sense of humor.

  36. voltaires_priest said,

    No, when people say summat funny I laugh out loud. The mere mention of your name usually does it for me :D

  37. paddygarcia said,

    Don’t think the nakba deserves celebration somehow. Why don’t you just ask some Palestinians and others who have been and continue to be victims of Israeli apartheid and militarism have to say about your “celebrations”

  38. paddygarcia said,

    Of course those pesky Arabs don’t count do they? Wish they would just go away and leave it to us “civilised” peoples, we know better.
    Twats!

  39. modernityblog said,

    Paddy,

    Greenshirts** like you should fuck off

    you are a proven sociopathic that thinks bombing pubs is acceptable, and in this case thinks that obliterating Israel is funny

    **for the non Irish readers, the Greenshirts were Irish fascists in the 1930s

  40. paddygarcia said,

    It was the “blueshirts” incidentally.
    Anyway this as an antidote to your pro zionist filth:

    http://www.palestineremembered.com/

  41. voltairespriest said,

    I think Paddy might have had a little drinkie before he logged on, personally ;)

  42. paddygarcia said,

  43. paddygarcia said,

    I don’t drink, had pot of PG Tips.

  44. paddygarcia said,

    Not known as ‘paddy the puritan” for nothing you know?

  45. voltairespriest said,

    That’s not the only thing you’re known as, believe me…

  46. paddygarcia said,

    I can well believe that, and you know really don’t give a toss.

  47. paddygarcia said,

    But as an unrepentant prohibitionist i draw the line at being accused of being drunk.

  48. voltairespriest said,

    So you should. Shocking immorality.

  49. modernityblog said,

    so Paddy doesn’t much mind be known as a supporter of bombing civilian pubs, using Nukes or even destroying Israel, but strangely he objects to being called a drunk?

    peculiar?

  50. paddygarcia said,

    Not at all.
    Remember Lenin, Keir Hardie, Connolly, Larkin, Che Guevara, maybe Trotsky were militant teetotalers and prohibitionists too.

  51. paddygarcia said,

    It is a fine tradition on the left. Modern examples include Tony Benn, Geotge Galloway, Martin McGuiness, Gerry Adams.

  52. paddygarcia said,

    All the above were and are teetotal and most were prohibitionists as well.

  53. modernityblog said,

    see, the jew hating scum like Paddy the Purtian arrive and the discussion goes down the sewer, as he’d like it to, so there’s no thought, no history or ideas or debate on the topic

    it ain’t hate to see why the Left is in such a state with racist scum like Paddy around.

  54. paddygarcia said,

    What did i say that can be construed as jew hating and racist? Please tell.

  55. paddygarcia said,

    Where is your evidence? Unless you are of the view that criticism of israel is racist?

  56. modernityblog said,

    evidence?

    god, you are a dim fuckwit

    the evidence is your wish to see Israel destroyed by a nuke

    the evidence is the lingo that you use and the rants that you make when the topic of Israel comes up

  57. paddygarcia said,

    Never mind the nukes, what lingo are you on about?
    Don’t you think that a post celebrating the nakba is going to generate some quite strong responses in return?

  58. paddygarcia said,

    I put a challenge to you and vp on the martin amis post as to whether you agreed with his powellite rantings, and whether you share similar opinions about the zionist preoccupations with arab birthrates? you have not replied, who is the racist here then?

  59. paddygarcia said,

    You also implied on osler’s blog that yasmin alabahi brown’s writings should be dismissed like the protocols of the elders of zion, you have failed to reply otherwise.

  60. modernityblog said,

    paddy,

    when talking about Israel you use the lingo and expression of the extreme right,

    because a socialist, which you claim to be would not joke about nuking a country, and in particular, Israel

    but the problem is you’re too fucking dim to realize that

    and NO, I don’t agree with Amis.

    please don’t try to bait me, or play the innocent, you merely wish to hide under Yasmin Alibhai-Brown’s words

    it is a common trick on the Far right.

    No, she’s not an antisemite, but certainly YOU are a jew baiting fuckwit, sober or not

    I hope that’s clear enough? or shall I spell it out again?

  61. paddygarcia said,

    Do you share the israeli preoccupations with arab birth rates? Yes or no?
    So you calling me a fascist too are you?
    Is criticism of israel only the perogative of racists and fascists then?
    The post about nukes really got you going didnt it?
    Celebrating the nakba, mass murder and ethnic cleansing of palestinians is a cause worth celebrating, yes or no?

  62. paddygarcia said,

    Please please tell me, apart from the flippant comment about nuking israel, what far right lingo and expressions of the far right have i used?

  63. paddygarcia said,

    As far as the nuclear question is concerned, as a life long cnd supporter, no state should ideally have them or any other wmd’s. But as long as the western powers and israel have them so should iran and syria, to counteract what is after all a real threat from imperialism. Its pretty much like supporting the soviet union’s right to have them during the cold war. What is your position on israeli nukes then?

  64. paddygarcia said,

    And same goes for cuba and venezuela should they wish to have nuclear weapons to defend themselves against yankee imperialism it is their right to do so.

  65. thermistor said,

    Catholic fash.

    delete

  66. paddygarcia said,

    Here we go again, yawn!
    Got anything to say apart from death threats?

  67. thyristor said,

    …asks the degenerate who fantasises about vaporising 6 million people. Nevermind, it’s a refreshing change from your women-hating rants.

  68. voltairespriest said,

    You’re beginning to try my patience, Paddy.

  69. modernityblog said,

    Paddy,

    you really are childish, so you are now a “life long cnd supporter”?? amazing

    is it common for CNDers to joke about the use of nukes? not amongst the dozen that I have known

    you wrote:

    what far right lingo and expressions of the far right have i used?

    why should we tell you what expressions to hide under and cover up your obvious Jew baiting mentality?

    if you were a socialist, you’d know what to avoid and more importantly WHY

    but you don’t

    so do us all a favour, fuck off to the political sewer that you come from and take your sociopathic attitudes with you

  70. sackcloth and ashes said,

    ‘Greenshirts were Irish fascists in the 1930s’

    Actually, it was the Romanian Iron Guard who wore green shirts, but the analogy is still appropriate.

    Fuck off back to your sewer, Paddy (if that Mersey Trout resistor hasn’t taken your place).

    Happy Birthday, Israel. It hasn’t been a stainless sixty years, but it’s been stellar compared to the brutality that Arab governments have inflicted on Arab peoples. It also seems to be home to a good number of Middle Eastern Jews who for some bizarre, unaccountable reason don’t seem to be able to live in their countries of origin anymore. Now why don’t the so-called ‘anti-Zionists’ want to talk about that?

  71. modernityblog said,

    I am embarrassed, it is of course the Blueshirts, not the Greenshirts

    my mind was clearly wandering and thoughts of the Rugby World Cup had obvious disrupted me :)

  72. thyristor said,

    So refreshing to see a comment thread here marshaled with such aplomb.

    Not.

    Kill garcia.

    catholic fash scum.

  73. Dr Paul said,

    Re Modernity at point 29. The British magazines I have seen during 1933-39 were pretty good at showing what the Nazis’ brutal regime was up to, with eye-witness reports of the terror and repression, including the Nuremberg laws, the Anschluss and Kristalnacht. I would say that the left in Britain had a very good idea that Nazi Germany posed a great threat to the Jews of Europe, although who of any political persuasion could have foreseen the entire extent of the threat, culminating in the Holocaust? As far as I know, many people were shocked when the news of the extent of the Holocaust became known, the sheer scale of it seemed beyond belief.

    The Fourth International: It was a mistake setting it up as a Comintern Mark II. Some sort of international grouping of revolutionary socialists had to be set up, but a looser organisation with a less confined programme would have been a better bet. Trotsky’s prognosis was well out of line, he underestimated the ability of the Western ruling classes and Stalin to defuse and divert the popular radicalisation that occurred as the Second World War came to a close.

    Should socialists support Hezbollah? I certainly think that the Arab masses have the right to defend themselves against imperialism and its local agents; but I give no credence to Hezbollah or any other such force to lead a principled fight against imperialism. The left has backed so many dodgy Third World forces on the basis that they are fighting imperialism and therefore must objectively be on our side, and what have we gained from it? And, more importantly, what have the Third World masses gained?

    The Soviet Union: If we knew from the start that Stalinism would be the end product — some did predict a pretty awful mess, read Kautsky’s books that were published here after 1918, or Bertrand Russell’s book on Bolshevism from (I think) 1920. Or for that matter, Paul Mattick’s Council Communist writings from the 1930s onwards. As a proletarian revolution in Germany, on which Lenin and Trotsky ultimately based the rationale for seizing power in Russia, was pretty unlikely, perhaps the Bolshevik experience can be seen as a Paris Commune writ large? Isolated in part of the former Russian Empire, the Soviet republic was bound to throw up in time a new ruling élite, but the precise manner — Stalinism — was not inevitable.

    Hindsight in the case of the Soviet Union would lead to what? Not seizing power? What would have occurred in Russia had Lenin kept to his pre-1917 schema, and not taken power? A very interesting question.

    Back to Israel: was the manner in which the Palestinians were treated in 1948 and after known at the time in Britain? I don’t know, research would be very useful. Was it inevitable that the Jabotinsky style of Zionism would become the dominant form, with Labour Zionism effectively adopting its strong anti-Arab line? All national movements have the capacity to adopt extreme chauvinist attitudes towards other nationalities, even when they are nationalities who have suffered dreadful persecution. Was/is Zionism able to promote a political programme for a just solution for the populations of Palestine and Israel, either on a proper two-state basis or a mono-statal basis?

    Whatever the above, I still think it unacceptable for a socialist to ‘congratulate’ Israel today.

  74. modernityblog said,

    Dr. Paul,

    whilst you’ve answered my points, I’m afraid I don’t think you addressed the issue, but I’ll restate it to make things clearer.

    my general point was about socialist’s hubris, over the past 90 years, there have been pronunciations on what should happen, what will happen and what Utopia will be like

    the truth is many of these predictions have been as useful as playing spin the bottle, very hit and miss and inaccurate

    and the implicit criticism that you make of Israel, with the benefit of hindsight and all that we know, which is essentially “should we approve of it”?

    well, that equally applies to most socialist endeavours in the last 90 years and yet you will be hard put to find many socialists saying “yep, we got it wrong over the Soviet Union”, “we lied to save face over the Molotov-Ribbentrop’s pact” “true, we achieved basically zero and put most people off socialist ideas”, “sorry, we did support that racist Hassan Nasrallah” etc

    No, you won’t find that type of contrition amongst contemporary socialists

    But then if we turn to Israel, you will see that Israelis are expressly self-critical and the vast majority of the research concerning the 1948 War of Independence comes from? Israelis!

    major works which condemned Zionist policies during the period come from? Zionist historians or Israeli historians, however you like to call them

    so there is a degree of criticism in Israelis that you don’t find in nearly any other continuous grouping over the past 90 years

    that’s why I find such a reproach of Israelis slightly hypocritical

    but lets look at another item, with the benefit of hindsight, we could conjecture that had the Arab states accepted the UN resolution then they would have been no conflict and thus little chance of a refugee crisis

    had the Arab armies not invaded the new state of Israel then it seems unlikely that they would have been such a refugee crisis with the Palestinians

    all very conditional, all counterfactual but as useful as hindsight

    so if we are going to play the blame game, and possibly historians should avoid such a tactic along with the benefit of hindsight, that blame gets squarely thrown around:

    blame the British for appeasing Arab sentiment;
    blame the British for pulling out too quickly;
    blame the British for building up the Jordanian Army;
    etc

    that list could be very long, and right down the bottom would be a small bit, which says “blame the refugees from Europe for wanting to live in peace”

    Somehow I doubt that when all of the blame is proportioned out that much of it would be attached to the Israelis for wanting a state, as most people do.

  75. resistor said,

    ModdyBloggy has made a fool of himself yet again. Just a little research on the interweb would have told him that that the fascists in Ireland wore blue shirts and that the IRA fought on the side of the republicans in Spain.

    Oh and Betar (former leader and hero of Moddy, Ehud Olmert) wore brown shirts in honour of Mussolini even before the Nazis.

    ps The refugee crisis and ethnic cleansing by the Zionists began in Palestine before the UN resolution and Zionist forces invaded ‘Palestinian’ territory befor eany Arab armies crossed over into ‘Israeli’ lands.

    You can believe Moddy’s fantasies but then you’d have to believe that Irish fascists wore green shirts. What a joke!

  76. modernityblog said,

    indeed resistor, as my comment of #71 stated I was mistaken, but then you probably didn’t read anyone else’s comments

    it was a late night and unlike you, I am human, I make mistakes :)

  77. Jim Denham said,

    “resistor”, this may well be the last occassion I’m drawn into any kind of conversation with you…

    Modernity has *not* made a fool of himself… you have;You say that the IRA never supported fascism?

    have you ever heard of Frank Ryan?

    I can tell you all about him…so, I suspect can Modernity…
    Gert back to me about Frank Ryan…you ignorant fool.

  78. paddygarcia said,

    Frank Ryan was the leader of the Irish volunteers fighting for the republican side in the spanish civil war. The christy moore song “vive la quince brigada” is dedicated to him.

  79. Gene said,

    This is what we need to sort Israel out [with video of nuclear explosion]

    Hilarious stuff. Absolutely side-splitting. In fact I’ve got an idea: why don’t you go to Israel, find some Shoah survivors (you can identify them by the numbers tattooed on their forearms), pull out your laptop and show them this video with your comment?

    Imagine the mirth!

  80. paddygarcia said,

    Hilarious stuff. Absolutely side-splitting. In fact I’ve got an idea: why don’t you go to Plalestine, Jordan, Lebanon, Syria, or anywhere in the world, find some Nakba survivors (you can identify them by the keys to their houses), pull out your laptop and show them this post on “congratulations Israel”

    Imagine the mirth!

  81. Gene said,

    Hilarious stuff. Absolutely side-splitting. In fact I’ve got an idea: why don’t you go to Plalestine, Jordan, Lebanon, Syria, or anywhere in the world, find some Nakba survivors (you can identify them by the keys to their houses), pull out your laptop and show them this post on “congratulations Israel”

    The difference, of course, is that I never suggested (mirthfully or otherwise) nuking Palestinians as a way to “sort them out.”

  82. paddygarcia said,

    No you just want to round them up and “transfer” them. Where have we heard that before?

  83. Gene said,

    No you just want to round them up and “transfer” them.

    Where did you get this information?

  84. modernityblog said,

    but it is not like anyone is being unfair to Paddy Garcia

    Paddy’s fond of bombs as a political method:

    http://modernityblog.wordpress.com/2007/11/09/open-thread-on-the-middle-east/#comments

  85. paddygarcia said,

    Sorry should have said “allegedly”. Be interesting to know what you advocate?

  86. voltaires_priest said,

    Thyristor;

    How’s about I ban people who write death threats or libels? Sounds a banging idea I reckon.

    What say you concentrate on “Marshalling” your mates and associates? Ta :)

  87. modernityblog said,

    Paddy

    you should try to remember your previous comments on this topic, eg:

    “modernityblog Says:
    Friday, 9 November, 2007 at 5:01 am edit

    so your equivocating now on the pubs?

    what about the bar room staff in squaddie pubs? or passing visitors, from council estates?

    collateral damage?”

    paddygarcia Says:
    Friday, 9 November, 2007 at 5:03 am edit

    Collaborators, anyone who hangs out with squaddies becomes a target.

    need I go on?

  88. paddygarcia said,

    I stand what i said.

  89. varistor said,

    Is it possible to libel a pseudonym, nevermind threaten a sock puppet with death?

  90. thyristor said,

    Kill resistor.

    Torture the fucker before putting the fucker down. Use a bolt gun to the head prior to the torture.

  91. thyristor said,

    Oh — and garcia. The same to him — do it. Split the evil fucker’s head open and look at the gunge that pours out.

    Then kick it around a bit before spitting and pissing on it.

  92. Jim Denham said,

    Paddy; and where and when did Frank Ryan die? Doing what? For whom?
    Your previous response suggested tgat you do not know the answers to these questions…but I think you do.

  93. paddygarcia said,

    I do know the answers, in my opinion he was mistaken to go to Germany, but he was never a nazi, only an Irish patriot who wanted to do the best for his country. Was a case of my enemy’s enemy is my friend, which in this case Germany being a major European capitalist and imperialist power was a totally wrong position to take.
    Don’t know if you have seen this, explains it quite well, to call him a fascist dismisses his achievements in Ireland and Spain where he was on the right side.

    http://www.geocities.com/irelandscw/docs-Ryan1.htm

  94. sackcloth and ashes said,

    ‘but he was never a nazi, only an Irish patriot who wanted to do the best for his country.’

    Yeah, that old chestnut. I think William Joyce said much the same thing. Fuck off to the Combat 18 website – this place is for socialists.

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